SURVEY: C Natural fingerings

Irish Flute
1

This survey is further to a recent discussion HERE.

The survey instructions are framed identically for both instruments/fora, but please only post reports on whistles on the Whistle Forum version and on flutes only on the Flute Forum version. Thanks!

The idea is to try to establish which of the possible cross-fingerings for C natural at the top of the 1st 8ve (C5/C’') of flutes and whistles is most commonly the “best” one. This survey is NOT about which fingering people prefer to use/have been taught to use/think is “right” or “easiest”, but about establishing which is the strongest toned, most in tune fingering available on each particular instrument (regardless of its player’s playing preferences), and thence to compile a tolerably empirical picture of which is most commonly found to be best across a broad selection of instruments.

I am therefore asking participants to take their instrument(s) and test the alternative fingerings detailed below on it, against a tuner for preference (if possible), or against a fixed pitch instrument such as a keyboard. Please try to blow each fingering similarly to the others and at a similar breath pressure to that which you would use for neighbouring notes/ passing through C natural in playing normally. Don’t be tempted to modify your breath pressure or “lip in” any of the alternatives.

I’m not going to try to organise this survey very systematically, but please state what instrument you are reporting on and which fingering you have found to be the optimum sounding one upon it, i.e. the one which is BOTH nearest to in tune (equal temperament!) AND has the clearest (least veiled or “wolfy”) tone. If there isn’t one such, please explain which fingering gives the nearest pitch and which the clearest tone. If you want to evaluate all of the possible fingerings and post a systematic assessment of each, that would be great, but if you do please also clearly indicate your “best” result/option. On flutes with Eb keys, please check the fingerings with that key both open and closed and mention that in your report.

The cross-fingerings available for C5 natural that may work to better or worse effect include:

oxo ooo
oxo xoo
oxo xox
oxo xxo
oxo xxx
oxx ooo
oxx xoo
oxx xox
oxx xxo

Thanks in advance to any participants.

I’ll try to get some exemplar assessments of my own instruments up soon, but am out of time right now.

(If anyone wants to establish a separate survey of “preferred for ease of playing” C nat fingerings, go ahead, but I have a feeling we’ve had polls etc. on that before.)

2

I don’t like the premise. What’s the point of finding the “best” one if it’s impractical for everyday use? I personally use more than one, depending on the circumstance. The best-sounding one is definitely not the best in terms of usefulness at speed. Kimi Raikonnen may drive the “best” car, but try to go to the shops in it. Cheers,

Rob

3

Duckin’ and divin’, Rob? This was your suggestion! Or did you have a different survey in mind? If so, explain, or set it up. We disagree about the “ease of use” thing, so what’s the point of re-hashing that? None of the possibilities is hard to use with familiarity, and I think getting folks to evaluate their own instruments systematically is no bad idea in itself.

4

Is there some consensus between flutes and their makers (of any century) that I don’t know about? I’ve never found any singular C fingering to be more accurate on all flutes, all the time - how can you find the best one, poll or not? Although, come to think of it, isn’t that how polls work - a general consensus that determines nothing?

5

on my flute oxx ooo is in tune, but the tone is veiled, oxo xxx has a better tone, but is just a bit sharp. i’d choose the second one, but for me is better the half holing option :smiley:

6

How about:

Which cross-fingering is most strongest in tone and in tune?
Which cross-fingering/cross-fingerings are you most likely to use?


oxo ooo
30 cents sharp nice tone
oxo xoo
30 cents sharp nice one, but just a wee bit muffled
oxo xox
30 cents sharp nice one, but just a wee bit muffled
oxo xxo
30 cents sharp nice one, but just a wee bit muffled
oxo xxx
20 cents sharp nice one, but just a wee bit muffled
oxx ooo
5 cents sharp, but just a wee bit muffled
oxx xoo
in tune, and just a wee bit muffled
oxx xox
no difference than above
oxx xxo
Nearly 50 cents sharp nice one, but just a wee bit muffled

I use oxx ooo 90% of the time. On slower tunes, I usually try to use oxx xoo.

However, I think a more accurate analysis would be had if everyone would just send all your flutes to me and I’ll play them and – using that new software program that creates a chart that Terry and his friend are working on – give us an accurate reading.

7

Yes, it was my suggestion, sort of. A large part of the original discussion you reference above was about what exactly defines the “best” C - mostly a choice between optimal tone/tune and practicality, i.e. ease of use in actually playing music. Your viewpoint on that is the only one represented by this survey, so I really don’t think this thread follows from the other one. You left us out! Cheers,


Rob

8

See here’s a perfect example of the sort of PRACTICAL info that this survey is attempting to ignore. I find this last statement by Mike Mahan, a fine player, to be of much more use and interest than the preceding rundown. This is music, not some high school science fair project! We ought to focus on what good musicians actually DO, and never mind the egghead approach. Cheers,

Rob

9

I don’t see any mention of half holing the B. While I, too, use OXX OOO 95% of the time, you can slide nicely from B to a half holed Cnat…very useful on slow aires.

I also use the Cnat key from time to time on slow tunes when the note is going to be held for long and there are certain passages in a few fast tunes where the Cnat key can be downright handy.

Eric

10

Thanks for the measurements and info. I tend to use oxx ooo on whistle. I’ll probably do the same on my flute when it arrives…

KAC

11

Please try to blow each fingering similarly to the others and at a similar breath pressure to that which you would use for neighbouring notes/ passing through C natural in playing normally.

See, I don’t play like that, and I don’t think any good player does. If I play C natural with exactly the same breath pressure I use for B, of course it’s going to be out of tune no matter what fingering I use. But I’ll try the experiment tonight.

12

It seems that OXX OOO is the usual fingering given for Cnat, as traditional.

Well, there are alternatives, and I once made a point of highlighting the benefits of a couple of them.

However, Tintin then suggested that the traditional, OXX OOO fingering produced what could be called the “blue note” of the ITM flute.

And, since then, I’ve been glad to let the matter rest.

13

Aebi Pratten, eight keys, Eb key has barely any influence on tuning. Fingerings I use regularly are marked “->”.

oxo ooo - 40c sharp, unstable, airy tone
oxo xoo - see above
oxo xox - see above
oxo xxo - 10c sharp, nice tone
→ oxo xxx - in tune, nice tone
→ oxx ooo - in tune, a bit unstable, a bit muffled tone
oxx xoo - 20c flat, muffled tone
→ oxx xox - 5-10c flat, muffled tone, a bit unstable
oxx xxo - overblows to a perfect C6 natural.
→ x,oo ooo - in tune, best possible tone
xxx xxx’’ - in tune, has a nice flageolet-y tone

14

oxxxox

or the key. The only problem with the key is when I use it on my keyless…

15

edit - I’m sorry I got confused with the two threads, I thought my post had not made it when really I had an internet glitch followed by checking on the wrong thread, and then reposted.

oxxooo on my cpvc three piece d whistle that I recently made.

  • of course I also just made three bodies with various size holes (in a series of more than a dozen experimental bodies) to zero in on a design that oxxooo would be in tune. The tone matches pretty well too.

Bill

16

oxoxxo gives me the best results. If this is impractical when playing at speed then oxoooo, but this tends to be a wee bit sharp.

17

Why “of course”?

18

I don’t know and don’t care whether I’m being ingnorant or apathetic about this question but I’m not interested in checking any of the flutes I own and play. I use the C key when I can manage it and oxx ooo the rest of the time.

Cheers
Graeme

19

Good on yer, Graeme! This is the kind of pragmatism that I can respect. Cheers,

Rob

20

Strewth! Dunno why I bothered. Perhaps I should have known better by now. Between those who would rather carp childishly and argue about shades of grey than make a few simple practical observations or just have niggly arguments for the sake of it and those who can’t (be bothered) to read properly or think before “contributing”, so failing either to get the point or to respond usefully in the terms requested, this is clearly a waste of time. If I could erase the thread from the forum I would.

To the few who have made sensible and thorough contributions in the relevant fashion, I thank you and am sorry that we seemingly cannot achieve a useful sample.

Forget the whole damn thing.

(posted to both fora/threads)