Sump pumps

Poststructural Pub
1

For or against? Do they work reliably in an outdoor situation. Apparently there are no good places to move my current rain gutter drain spout without collecting water against the house foundation. I already have a drain out to the street, but with only a 10" drop over 105 ft. Should I change to a really big water collection box and a sump pump to force the water out through this existing drain out to the street? What turns these things on? Manual operation? Standing water activating the pumps?

Kevin Krell

2

Yes. Usually you would sink the pump into a pit below the floor level of your basement (the sump) and a float switch would turn it on. Of course, this depends on you having electricity. If the power is out, you’re soggy toast.

Sumps and their pumps are now mandatory for all new houses where I live. Fortunately (?) my house is too old to fit in this category (1889).

djm

3

10" in 105 ft. should be enough of a gradient to work fine, esp for storm water. It’s also a perfect slope for sewer. They like to be just a little less than ¼" drop per ft. I assume you’d be using a 3" pvc pipe. Sometimes it pours in LA, right? Might go 4" pipe for flood control.

4

Pipe is 3". The original problem in this house (all ground story BTW), was water collecting on a downslope from the driveway towards the back of the propertyand going into a garage. Driveway from the street goes /===\ - that is, goes up from the street, levels off alongside the entrance to the house, and goes down toward the garage.

Jacking up the garage and regrading the driveway doesn’t seem a reasonable option either. Rain gutters were stupidly placed to bring water off the roof onto the back side of the driveway. Originally, a tenant had a storage shed in front of the garage, and firewood and debris next to it. The water all ran into that section and was a foot or so high.

The garage has a raised wood floor (furnished as an office), but the garage door and insulation at the front was soaked and moldy. Mold remediation and reconstruction was costly enough, and it STILL smells, even though the scrape & air tests came out OK, and much lower than the surrounding outside air.

We had temporarily diverted the gutter along the ground away from this area, onto the property next door, so it would be dry enough to work on the garage. The drain collects at a low point, cuts across the driveway (now of course embedded below the surface), and into a pipe running that 105’ out under the sidewalk to a cored curb. It works, but can be overwhelmed if you run a hose onto the driveway full force. It will drain, but slowly, and empties during any breaks in the rain. We also added a 4" concrete curb in front of the garage so that water can pool temporarily if need be until drainage can occur. I don’t know that even this is sufficient to allow that one gutter downspout to remain, and I’m not tempted to test it. A lot of water comes down off that roof. Any other placement of the gutter would tend to pool water around the house foundation, and there’s already enough evidence that just watering the flowerbeds has potential for damage. Definitely have to grade that all away from the house.

I had hoped to get the gutters fixed, but now that isn’t looking like it would even help. A suggestion was that we change out the 12" drain collection box and put in a much larger, deeper one with a sump pump, powered off the garage electrical. The idea was that this could push the water through at a fast enough clip to prevent pooling, as well as be more likely to keep the pipe clear of silt and other debris. When we did the drain, it had seemed that a sump pump solution would be far too expensive. However, now that the current drain is there, it might actually be feasible without as much of an add.

Kevin Krell

5

Kevin, if the inside of the garage is dry, you will probably be able to reduce or eliminate the moldy smell with ozone.

Best wishes,
Jerry

6

I wouldn’t advise you to hang around while the ozone generator is operating.

I am having similar water/mold problems in a basement that I am planning to use as a workshop. The problem is that the driveways on both sides of the house (very near the house) have been built up so that now they are higher than the ground adjacent to the house. Water coming off the house through the gutters has no place to go but down around the foundation of the house. It doesn’t do any good to put on drain spout extensions if the extensions go uphill. If I could rewrite the rules of gravity, I would have no problem. Barring that possibility and without major reconstruction, I am seeking a practical solution. The idea of wearing rubber boots and mold masks in the basement isn’t very attractive.

7

Jerry, will you explain that?
I’ve heard raw sewage is treated with ozone to reduce the smell.
Doesn’t ozone give off a sweet (but toxic) aroma?
How is the process done? ozone is a gas… yes? are ozone solutions available?
I know there are electronic air purifiers that (unsafely) give off ozone when their settings are adjusted too high.

8

Ozone is trivalent oxygen (O3). O3 is unstable and degrades to O2 plus an oxygen ion (free radical), which then reacts (combines) with whatever it comes into contact to make a stable compound (typically CO2 and/or H2O).

Because it can interact with some of the complex molecules (hydrocarbons, nitrogen containing organic molecules, etc.), ozone is particularly useful for neutralizing things that create lingering odors, especially tobacco smoke smells, traces of pet odors (after the main sources have been thoroughly cleaned and, if necessary, sealed) and mold smells (after the area has been cleaned and all sources of moisture eliminated).

Ozone is especially good for odors coming from organic sources (pet odors, mold, garbage, etc.), but not especially effective for odors from man-made chemicals (building materials, solvents, etc.).

Ozone generators are available in a wide range of outputs, from ones that trickle just a little ozone and are incapable of generating more ozone than naturally occurs in outdoor air, up to high capacity ozone generators that you would set up for a day or two and leave the premises, then come back, turn off and allow another day or so for the ozone to dissipate. Some people are sensitive to man-made ozone, BTW, even when the levels are within a range that’s normal for natural outdoor air, and some people are tolerant of rather elevated levels with no problems (arc welders, for example, work around increased ozone levels).

I have a fairly industrial medium sized ozone generator that I wouldn’t be comfortable with in an enclosed living space, but is fine if I leave it running in the basement. One reason for this is that ozone gets used up when it neutralizes an odor source, so in a clean, relatively odor free area more of the ozone output will remain in the air, since there’s not much for it to interact with, but in a basement, with more volume of air and more sources of mustiness for the ozone to neutralize (which uses up the ozone), the amount of ozone in the air can be a lot less with the same capacity of generator.

Bear in mind, there’s ozone in naturally occurring outdoor air, which gets removed when the air is enclosed in a living space. That familiar fresh, off the clothesline smell comes from the exposure of the fabric to the natural ozone in the air, which is generated by sunlight reacting with air molecules. That’s one reason why fresh air and sunlight are purifying/antiseptic and can be used to freshen bedding, etc.

I’ve used ozone for a decade or so and been very happy to have it as a tool to use when it’s suitable. There are some situations where nothing else can do quite the same thing.

Best wishes,
Jerry

9

Jerry, I am curious as to the output and cost of the ozone generator (medium-size commercial) that you leave running in your basement. Do you work in the basement while it is running? Also, I do not understand why there is a restriction that all sources of moisture be removed first. That would be very impractical in my case, since there is a little seepage through the basement walls, and both the evaporative refrigeration coils and the dehumidifier drain into a basement floor drain.

Since I am sensitive to various smells, I rountinely use two other types of filters in my house. I have two HEPA (high efficiency particle accumulators) filters and four VOC (volitile organic compounds) or odor filters, which use filter elements containing activated carbon and zeolite. I am interested in learning more about similar filters that are commonly used for household air purification. What about electrostatic elements on the furnace? Do they work well in this capacity?

10

Hi, Doug.

I bought this machine a long time ago. The company is no longer in business, as far as I know. I don’t have a way to quantify the ozone output, except to say it is very noticeable, even in fairly large spaces, and it’s too intense for most people to be comfortable in a living space. I believe I paid $300 for it, but I don’t remember.

I am able to work with it on in the basement, but I might not be able to work with it in a more neutral space, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Nowadays, there’s probably a large selection of ozone generators, so I would suggest doing some online research and try to compare reviews to see if any pop out as looking like good candidates.

The reason for getting the area dry is, that’s the key to get the mold to stop growing. If you can’t eliminate all moisture, the dehumidifier might still help to reduce the mold growth. Some ozone generators don’t work very well when the air is humid, because of the technology they use (some kind of electrical grid). Ozone generators that use UV light (inside a cabinet, and then the ozone generated is blown out into the room by a small fan) work just as well in humid and dry environments. Moisture generally increases odors, as a rule.

You might be able to reduce the seepage in the basement walls if you can pinpoint the sources. Sometimes it’s just a matter of going out in a rainstorm and looking for where runoff water flows against the house, instead of flowing away from the house, and then figuring out a way to keep more of the water from running against the foundation in those places.

In response to your question about electrostatic air cleaners, it’s been awhile since I was actively involved in indoor air pollution mitigation work, so there are newer technologies I’m not very familiar with. However, having issued that caveat, I’ll say that you might consider a HEPA type whole-house filter for the furnace. Some people are enthusiastic about electrostatic filters, some people aren’t. Here’s a non-electrostatic furnace filter system I’ve recommended and used myself:

http://www.aprilaire.com/category.asp?ID=78AF591022CB430194A5737F8522419E&catID=0B10B06EA1EA4D14A4722CD120E8C7F6

Best wishes,
Jerry

11

Sorry, Jerry, but I would have to go with cautioning against the use of ozone. It is a highly reactive gas, and ground-level ozone is already at artificially high levels in most urban situations from vehicle exhaust. Ozone can and will damage the linings of your nose, throat and lungs. On interior surfaces, it will react with rubber and plastics, like any hoses.

Ozone does not smell sweet, Tony. It is the residual smell left after a bolt of lightning strikes really close. It is a sharp, chemical smell.

While it is true that you can get ozone generators, they must be closely monitored. You would do best, as Jerry recommends, to air the space out for an extra day after running ozone. The first sign of ozone poisoning is getting a crashing sinus headache. If you are sensitive to stuff in the air, you will probably be especially sensitve to ozone’s presence.

If you have a moisture problem in the basement with seepage, there is no way to effectively mask it. The best (and most expensive) cure is to dig up your foundation, seal the outside, and install adequate drainage away from the building - $10-12K. Barring that, you can seal up seepage holes in the cement from the inside with a special compund, and then seal the cement from the inside as well - $5-7K. Run a dehumidifier to remove any last traces of moisture. Only then are you ready to start cleaning up any mold or mildew problems.

Lots of work. It will probably keep you occupied for a couple of months. Sorry for your luck.

djm

12

I would caution against the use of salt, too. It can kill you. So can water. So can vitamins A and D.

Now we’re getting into territory where the thread is likely to get locked.

There are regulations in place in the U.S. that limit the output of household ozone generators to the amount that would naturally occur in outdoor air, and millions of people have had good experiences with such devices.

I’ve never encountered someone who had been “poisoned” by an ozone generator. I’ve encountered some who commented that they didn’t tolerate them (generally people with multiple chemical sensitivities who also don’t tolerate many of the household products millions of people use every day), and I’ve also encountered many sensitive people who found that ozone helped clear up their environment so they could tolerate it much better than before. Some such people found they needed to be out of the room when the ozone was running, but after turning it off and airing the room, it was much more tolerable than before. Such a person might run the ozone for a few hours at a time two or three times a week in an otherwise pretty pure space.

It’s not a simple matter of “ozone generators are the magic answer” or “ozone generators are evil.”

Best wishes,
Jerry

13

I’ve never seen a household ozone generator react with ANY material in the vicinity except natural latex. Perhaps in a welding shop, you might see it, but I’ve never seen any interaction with ozone from an ozone generator and plastics or any other material except natural latex, which will degrade even if just left long enough in the open air. I don’t believe it’s correct to compare the level of ozone on the street with the level inside a house. I would be very surprised to find any correlation at all.

I agree about the need to get rid of the moisture problems, but I’ve found it can often be accomplished without digging up a foundation by doing what I suggested. You can usually figure out where the water is coming in and then devise a way to direct it elsewhere. We had quite a bit of moisture in the 160 year old basement in this house, and it was easy to see what was happening. In this case, all that was needed was to install rain gutters (about $1,200) and replace a dripping outside faucet.

Best wishes,
Jerry

14

The problem is that the driveways on both sides of the house (very near the house) have been built up so that now they are higher than the ground adjacent to the house. Water coming off the house through the gutters has no place to go but down around the foundation of the house. It doesn’t do any good to put on drain spout extensions if the extensions go uphill. If I could rewrite the rules of gravity, I would have no problem. Barring that possibility and without major reconstruction, I am seeking a practical solution. The idea of wearing rubber boots and mold masks in the basement isn’t very attractive.

I wonder if there might be a solution to this by variously redirecting the output of the rain gutters to the back or front of the house instead of the sides where it runs between the driveways and the house, and possibly filling the ground between the driveways and the house higher so the water runs out onto the driveways instead of towards the foundation?

Best wishes,
Jerry

15

I mentioned ozone specifically in response to this:

Mold remediation and reconstruction was costly enough, and it STILL smells, even though the scrape & air tests came out OK, and much lower than the surrounding outside air.

This, in my experience, is the perfect situation to use ozone. It can take away the lingering smell after appropriate remediation has been completed, especially including getting the space permanently dry. It may not be necessary to run an ozone machine very much in a space like that, though it might need freshening up with ozone every now and then if the odor tends to come back over time.

Best wishes,
Jerry

16

Y’know,

You can direct the output of a downspout directly into an underground drainpipe and let it run to the curb. It might be a matter of making shallow trenches just below grade, putting in some flexible plastic pipe and figuring out where to let the water out a distance away from the house.

Best wishes,
Jerry

17

My experience with ozone is for water purification, where it does off-gas to toxic levels in the building without proper filtering and ventilation, and does eat plastics and hoses. And I do know what it smells like when there’s way too much in the air. YMMV.

I agree that ozone is not “evil” but simply caution that it has to be monitored closely. Its not something that you just turn on and walk away and forget, but can be benficial in experienced hands.

djm

18

OK, now I understand.

You’re working with levels that certainly would be hazardous.

When there’s just a hint of ozone in the air, you get a fresh “clothesline laundry” smell that’s pleasant. If you increase the amount to above natural levels, it becomes irritating, and eventually toxic, just as you said.

Best wishes,
Jerry

19

Sump pumps are wonderful things… until they die of old age in the middle of Seattle’s winter rainy season. Then, you end up kneeling in knee-deep water in the crawlspace under your house for a few hours while you replace it with a new one, unable to see what you’re doing because the water is too murky for the light from your headlamp to penetrate, and unable to feel what you’re doing because your hands have gone numb from being immersed in the near-freezing water.

I now keep a portable sump pump on hand in case the main one dies. That way I can pump the water out before trying to replace the old pump. Duh.

20

Well, we probably WILL run the ozone generator for awhile once the painting is done, and before moving in our stuff. We no longer use the ozone generator because of the damage to rubber & elastic items, but this seems like a good time to haul it out of storage.

I’m in Los Angeles, and it’d be outside, so no crawling under anything.

Kevin Krell