I know this is a stupid question, but what are those curlicue things that are above the notes in slip jigs??? Are they crans, rolls, what???
I’m not sure as I can’t do them yet, but I think they indicate rolls.
If they look like a sideways “S”, then they are probably meant to indicate a roll. This is a convention that has emerged fairly recently, perhaps since the advent of ABC notation.
It’s worth remembering that ornamentation is always optional and totally at the player’s discretion.
Experienced players, I think, by and large prefer settings without ornamention indicated - at least I do. If ornamentation is shown I feel free to ignore it or to substitute a different ornament or appropriate melodic figure (say BAB for a roll ~B3).
It always strikes me as strange when people say things like “You know those three rolls at the beginning of the Legacy Jig…” (there was a post to this effect recently).
I don’t see that jig or any other jig as necessarily having rolls anywhere. To me they are more like places where you could put rolls if you felt like it. After all there are great players who play very few or no rolls at all. And there are instruments on which rolls don’t sound good at all.
If this is way more information than you were looking for, excuse me for digressing. But I think it’s a point that beginners or relative beginners really need to understand.
Actually the ‘S’ notation for a roll has been around for a long time. It has just only recently moved into whistle notation
Most beginners can’t do rolls anyhow, so it’s kinda irrelevant…
On 2002-03-11 21:10, TelegramSam wrote:
Most beginners can’t do rolls anyhow, so it’s kinda irrelevant…
You’re right, Sam, most can’t, but that’s why I think this issue IS relevant. Beginners often assume that they have play rolls to because they are on the music. Not only are the results often less than sublime, but they waste time struggling with rolls that they should be spending on far more important aspects, like good basic rhythm.
On 2002-03-11 21:41, StevieJ wrote:
they should be spending on far more important aspects, like good basic rhythm.
yet another concept I have yet to figure out.
Gargh…
OK. To quote from my handy Harvard Dictionary of Music, the sideways S, in classical music is called, in English, a turn; French, a double cadence, double, brise; German, a Doppelschlag; Italian, a fioratura; Spanish, grupito, which all means an ornament consisting of a group of four or five notes that turn around the principle note. I’m sure THAT helped a lot! Notice that there was no translation for Irish. JP
Picking up from another thread, Miko Russell was probably the only traditional musician who could get away with not playing rolls. They are one of the defining “condiments” of Irish music - so much so that I was surprised to see that there is a correct name for them in so many other musical cultures (cue flaming for even using a politically incorrect word like “correct” in a trad forum).
The advice to beginners about not losing sight of the basic rhythm is sound, but sooner or later you’re going to want to introduce rolls. It’s best to start with a roll on the G (as in the Kesh jig or Donnybrook fair) and then gradually introduce them on other notes (F and A are probably next easiest). Inevitably, once you’ve mastered rolls, you’ll start putting them in in far too many places, but after a while a natural balance should be achieved - the triumph of taste over technique!
I agree with StevieJ, I don’t prefer to decide for myself when and how many croutons to put in my soup.
All ornamentation should be at the player’s discretion, You might leave it out first time round, pep it up a bit on the repeat, go mad crazy the third time, and then back to basics for the final round, whatever you fancy at the time.
I always take the ~ symbols to indicate that you can put in a “bit of business” there if you feel like it, be it a roll, cran, triplet or whatever.
On 2002-03-12 00:38, JohnPalmer wrote:
OK. To quote from my handy Harvard Dictionary of Music, the sideways S, in classical music is called, in English, a turn; French, a double cadence, double, brise; German, a Doppelschlag; Italian, a fioratura; Spanish, grupito, which all means an ornament consisting of a group of four or five notes that turn around the principle note. I’m sure THAT helped a lot! Notice that there was no translation for Irish. JP
Hmmmm… Very Interesting.
I wonder if “Doppelschlag” is pronounced as written.
I need to throw that word to a young and budding choir director that I know.
“Doppelschlag” that just rolls off the tongue. I guess you learn something new every day.
It sounds like a word you would use to say cheers!
Or when my husband is snoring. Doppelschlag… turn over! 
Thanks for that bit of info.
Laura
ok, thanks everyone. All I can do are cuts and strikes, I’m trying to get the rolls down. I think I can do cranns, I don’t know. Anyway, though, thanks for the advice.
John: I think the fact that the sideways S is used for turns or mordants in classical music does not mean that rolls are used there. A turn or Doppelschlag is a group of five (or four) notes, for instance G-A-G-F#-G. A (long) roll is a group of three notes, G-G-G. They are just separated by cuts and strikes. So I guess a roll should be written G-blip-G-blop-G.
I don’t think any of the older trad whistlers used rolls, for instance Packie Byrne didn’t. I hear that they are a recent arrival in the tradition. That does not make them bad and certainly they make life a lot easier if you have stuff like this in a reel: EGGF GABC. You can play E~G3 GABC. But the fact that they are recent does mean that you don’t have to use them. For instance in the B-Part of Green Groves of Erin, you can roll yourself into a coma:
M:C|
L:1/8
K:Amix
…
e~a3 e~a3 | e~g3 e~g3 | e~a3 b~g3 | ~e3f gedg |
e~a3 bgab | edef ~g3e | dega b~g3 | 3(efg fa gedB 
(I put in all the rolls you could, I think ) Point is, I find my self playing it with out rolls, at least the first time round in the session, sometimes with no rolls at all. I don’t think it makes me sound like a recorder player. Especially when it gets really fast I play
eaag eaag | eggf eggf | eaag …
or even
eaa2 eaa2 | egg2 …
with a cut between the a’s and g’s.
/bloomfield
[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-03-12 09:21 ]