Struggling with high-end notes

I have been thinking that the Bb-ish note (horrible squawking thing when you don’t want it) as being along the lines of a OXXOOO C natural being dropped even lower by closing more holes. If so it would be a fundamental for OXXXXXX, an effective tube longer than for all fingers off. So a D fundamental, a shorter wavelength than for the hole position, for OXXXXX seems is puzzling.

(crossing, I think I am agreeing with Peter)

And now adding - I think it comes down to ‘what resonant frequencies will that configuration of tube produce that will allow mode-locking at the fipple’. Thinking of them as harmonics of a note that isn’t there is just [a good] way of describing them.

Please tell me the well known definition of the term fundamental…

I am referring to the phenomenon of a fundamental frequency in a harmonic series.
This is typified by:
(1) being the lowest frequency in the series
(2) of having harmonics in the ration 1:2:3:4…
Both of which conditions are met by D6 for the series D6,D7,A7

The second of which is NOT met for the series D5, D6, D7, A7 (ratios 1:2:4:6).

Well, maybe, I really don’t know. I suspect it would take a bit of maths to decide the issue, which is by now far behind (or should I say beyond) me. (In response to Peter)

As for definitions, this board does seem to be populated by Humpty-Dumpties. “Transposing instrument”, “tradition”, “chiff”, now “fundamental”. It all seems like so much work.

Sorry Phil, I crossed with a relevant edit. I added “I think it comes down to ‘what resonant frequencies will that configuration of tube produce that will allow mode-locking at the fipple’. Thinking of them as harmonics of a note that isn’t there is just [a good] way of describing them.”

I am thinking out loud rather but I think if a lower note is not sounding then it (and its name) may be irrelevant to the physics.

Big (full-hole) vent at half-length kills the anti-nodes for 3 and 5 whereas small (leaked) vent doesn’t? And you’ve still got a harmonic-inducing vent here (corresponding to the central nodes for 2, 4 and 6) whether it’s full-hole or the merest chink…

Here’s my view, Phill.

Granted, a vented D6 behaves as if it were the fundamental of a theoretical instrument of length D6, with the series D6, D7, A7, D8 …

But as if is not is. The whistle’s not a theoretical construct but a real physical object, and the vented D is simply not the fundamental vibrational mode of the tube’s air column. The vent-antinode interaction fully accounts for the observed behavior. And as far as fingerings go (which is the OP issue), misunderstanding won’t do any favors for experimenting with alterations of the vented D fingering pattern.

Not that any of this is of much consequence when the usual approach is simply to find a (cross-)fingering that does what you want it to do and use it. But I guess the physics can aid in the discovery procedure.

As I recall, jemtheflute and I batted around a bunch of different 3rd octave whistle fingerings here a long time ago, up to high A or so. Seek and ye shall find … well, maybe. :smiling_imp:

With all the discussion of harmonics and such I don’t think anyone has actually answered your question yet… :laughing:

Ther are actually THREE usable notes above B: C, C#, and D. Yes, there are even higher notes, but in 20 or so years of playing I’ve yet to need one. They’re never pretty sounding.

First, the highest notes need a good high wind velocity to get them to “speak”. If you try to start the airflow with a a sort of huff of breath, it actually ramps up somewhat gradually. This gradual buildup of wind velocity makes a clean note difficult. This is where a bit of tonguing helps. As you start to blow, place the tip of your tongue behind your upper front teeth as if you were going to say the letter “T”. Release the built up air pressure by silently saying that letter “T”. The slight explosive burst of air will get the difficult notes speaking more easily.
C# is easily fingered: OOOOOO
D is sort of counterintuitive: OXXXXX (that 0 is the venting that everyone has been talking about). With practice, this isn’t hard and truthfully you won’t often have to do this very quickly in a tune
C (natural) is a bit more tricky. The only consistent way I know to play this note is HOOOOO where H is half holed (I just invented this notation :smiley: as far as I know). Half holing scares the bejeezus out of people for some reason, but it’s really not all that hard and it can also be used to play many other useful notes like Bb (XHOOOO),G# (XXHOOO),Fnatural (XXXHOO) etc. Do a search of this forum for half holing and you’ll see a ton of controversy. By all means give it a try.
Don’t be discouraged by the high notes-- they take some practice and will vary a lot from whistle to whistle, but you’ll get them.

next time make up “D” for half holes :really:

:tomato: sorry :tomato:



they’ll never let ya in the 'alf hole convention with an “H”

vented D is not a fundamental - consider
XXXOOO versus XXX0XX
and
XXOOOO versus XXOXXX
and
XOOOOO versus XOXXXX

and then :
OOOOOO versus OXXXXX

conclusions are left as an exercise for the reader/experimenter! (unless of course too many get the wrong end of the stick - by the way where is the stick? - in which case perhaps I’ll try to explain my understanding further).

Good, we agree on something. It is good to start with an agreement, as we can more easily see where we differ. We agree that the observed behaviour is consistent with the assertion that a vented D6 is a fundamental.

I have a lot of respect for your abilities and views MTGuru, but you cannot seriously expect me to accept an assertion unsupported by argument as sufficient to negate my views. What evidence do you have that my assertion is wrong?

So does the assertion that the vented D6 is a fundamental.

But I will show that I have seriously considered your argument by restating my understanding of your case:
“The vented D6 is not a fundamental, it is the first harmonic in a series based upon the bell note D5. A harmonic series consists of a series of frequencies with the ratios 1:2:3:4… So ‘1’ is D5, ‘2’ is D6, ‘3’ is A6… But neither D5 nor A6 is not present because venting at T1 forces an antinode at the middle of the column preventing these notes, and all other ‘odd numbered’ frequencies. This leaves us only with the even numbered frequencies 2:4:6:…”
To me this looks like the definition of a harmonic series with twice the frequency of that which we started. One where D6 is the fundamental. So your antinode/venting theory simply and elegantly explains how venting prevents the original harmonic series based upon D5 and only allows the harmonic series based on D6. This is the very reason we do it - the fundamental is the easiest note to hit cleanly, as it is furthest separated from its neighbour(s).

If it looks like a fundamental, sounds like a fundamental and behaves like a fundamental you will need a very good explanation of why it is not a fundamental, or at least some evidence.


You say that treating vented D6 as a fundamental will lead to erroneous deductions. Excellent! This is the acid test of a theory. It makes predictions about how reality is, and then reality can bite back and disprove the theory with one counter-example. Please, then, supply the counter example and I will cease and desist my heretical belief.

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I am a little surprised by the vehemence raised by this debate. We are discussing explanations for an observation about how one note could be classified on a tin whistle. I would have thought that we would all have an interest in finding the best explanation, and the most reliable way known is to supply argument and counter argument, weigh the two and decide which is the most probable. I have done my bit by presenting my arguments and evidence as clearly as I can. I have yet seen no reasoned argument against my assertion.

Many have told me that I am wrong, but not why I am wrong. Nobody has presented evidence as to why I am wrong. I have posted here often enough, for you all to know that I quite like being wrong if I learn something, and indeed I will oft times propose something in order to elicit clear reasoned counter argument in order to learn. This is not what I am doing here. I believe that I am right, and that those that maintain that I am wrong are doing a disservice to the onlookers.

However, I think that this is a small point indeed, and it affects whistle playing very little. Nor, in the final analysis, does it matter that two people hold different views. What I do cavil at is being told that I am wrong, but without explanation as if an ‘ex cathedra’ pronouncement is sufficient to settle a matter of fact. I expected higher standards on this forum.

So I will apologise to the OP for derailing the thread, and will refrain from commenting further until someone puts forth a sound reason why I should believe otherwise in this matter. At that time I may decide either to rebut or recant.

I’m lost in the argument between Peter, Phill and MTGuru. :confused: I’ll read it again when I have some leisure.
The alternative fingering plus overblowing is sound, though. As BrewerPaul says, you need to blow hard. It needs welly! (technical term.)
If you get hold of a tabor pipe and learn how to play that, you’ll find you apply the same principle automatically when reaching for those high notes. Ashokan Farewell and My Lagan Love can come out fine on a Low D.

Phill. As pointed out by kilthemessenger there is a first octave note close to Bb that can be blown from OXXXXX. I think that it is a fundamental in the same way that C natural and all the other ‘forked fingering’ first octave notes are (which fits with what Peter and highwood have said). If you are saying that the fundamental from OXXXXX is a D how do you describe that Bb ?

I was thinking about that lower note - if it was part of a D-related harmonic series, its fundamental would be D4 or lower. I suspect Peter’s right that it’s just a massively flattened C (oxxooo) or C# (oooooo) that speaks at low breath pressure.

There is a fingering chart in flute acoustics.

For Boehm (modern) and Baroque it mentions that E5 is the first note that requires a change in air stream.
oddly for the Classical flute it makes no mention of that change between D5 or D#5 and E5.

But we’re trying. :slight_smile:

Let’s try this. Instead of a whistle and an air column, think of a monochord. And let’s tune the string to C4. For a given string tension and mass, the sounding pitch of the string is proportional to its length. By definition, the fundamental of the string is the first vibrational mode, the pitch that sounds when the string is excited (plucked, bowed, etc.) in that mode - in this case, C4.

Now take your finger and very lightly touch the string at the halfway point, and excite the (entire) string. This is the same technique used to produce “harmonics” or “chime” tones on a guitar or violin. The note you hear is now C5, one octave above the fundamental. It’s the same note you’d hear if you actually stopped the string fully at the halfway point. But there’s a big difference.

When you stop the string, the half of the string that is not excited does not vibrate. It no longer participates in producing the pitch you hear. It is, in effect, as if you’ve created a new monochord half the length of the original. This is the equivalent of fingering or fretting the octave note on fiddle or guitar. Or of cutting your whistle in half, halving its length. And your new monochord has a new fundamental: C5.

By contrast, when you lightly touch the string, the entire string (both halves) continues to vibrate. You can confirm this several ways: by damping either half, which kills the note; or by videographing or strobing the string. The entire string is vibrating in its second mode, not fundamental. But the pitch is the same: C5.

Similarly, the fundamental of the whistle is determined by the entire length of the whistle’s air column (and its temperature and pressure and density). But when you play the vented D oxxxxx, it is the equivalent of lightly touching the monochord. The vent creates a low pressure point at the halfway point. And like the finger lightly on the string, it supresses any vibrational modes which would create a nodal maximum at that point.

But like the monochord, the whistle’s entire air column continues to participate in the note. Again, you can confirm this photographically or, more conveniently, by simply end-stopping the bell of the whistle - which will alter the pitch. If the vented D were a fundamental, then the lower half of the tube would not be vibrating, and any manipulation of holes below the vent hole would have no effect.

If anything, removing additional fingers would be expected to raise the pitch by decreasing the end-effect impedance. When in fact, removing additional fingers actually lowers the pitch - from the second vibrational mode (D) to the fundamental of the open-fingered tube (C#).

Which shows that the vented D is not the fundamental (and there is only one) of either the whistle’s full length or its shunted (open-fingered) length. Rather, the whole whistle is sounding its second vibrational mode, exactly as if overblowing the bell note D. The difference being that, like the lightly-touched monochord, the vent hole selectively suppresses odd modes of the fundamental, producing a different harmonic series. It’s the same series produced by fully stopping the monochord, or cutting the whistle in half. But what is happening physically and acoustically is quite different.

Whew! That’s too much brain exercise this early in the morning. But I hope that helps.

string theory :really:

but you do not over blow to reach it, you anti node the fundamental out
seems a bit of a gray area :smiling_imp:

Excellent explanation, thanks.

It does seem 11-dimensional, doesn’t it? :slight_smile:

Yes, but not really too grey. You can also overdrive a monochord/string to its second mode.

(Bold added by Phill)
You mean the harmonic series with a fundamental of D6?


(Bold added by Phill)

The vented D is a ‘fundamental’ note of the different harmonic series.

Yes it does help, we are now agreeing violently :smiley: . Than k you.

ah, ya went too far…

it’s a bell D without the fundamental

what ya got with an anti node
not with over blowing