I was reading through past articles of Treoir, (IRTRAD music journal, published by Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann) and came across a great article by Wayne Webster regarding playing speed in traditional music.
http://www.comhaltas.com/education/Treoir/2002Tr2/Speed.htm
He makes some very interesting points.
T
Excellent article, I agree wholeheartedly - he even covers the “sour grapes” angle which I sometime suspect myself of.
One of the best antidotes which I know to the speed s…e is still Brian McNamara’s solo album. Kitty Hayes’s is also one to recalibrate people’s sense of tempo.
It’s interesting, the article mentions Kevin Burke, and I’m listening to his performance from a month or two ago at the Kennedy Center. Search for Burke in the following link:
http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/archive.html#search
It’s Kevin playing solo – no accompaniment at all, for an hour. It’s not as fast nor as ornamented as a lot of current players. He has a sense of timing and taste that’s just impeccable.
I love this passage:
The fine New York fiddler Patrick Ourceau once told me that the musician should be playing in service of the tune and not the other way around. The very talented Ray Coen of Sligo told me that the highest compliment a player can receive is, what a lovely tune, not, what an impressive talent you are. In other words, the tune isn’t a vehicle for the player to impress the audience with his virtuosity but rather the players virtuosity is a vehicle to impress the audience with the beauty of the tune.
I wish the article had been a bit more specific about the harm done to a tune when it is played too fast.
Allow me to play devil’s advocate…
Interesting article. I find it lacking in some areas. For instance, he seems to assume that you can’t play fast and also play with feeling. Wrong. I’ve heard quite a few musicians who prove the opposite. For a big name, go listen to Liz Carroll. John Williams also springs to mind.
At first, he seems to be trying to say that speed can get too fast; that there is a point where the music loses something. He starts out alright, but by the end he is generalizing. Instead of just sticking with his original target(too fast), he seems to say that anything fast is too fast. Even those who are capable of speed.
I agree that speed can be quite distasteful and out of place. On the other hand, I think that it can be used well. I do not think that speed and “doing service to a tune” are mutually exclusive.
\
True Believer
Nate
[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-11-14 13:06 ]
Great article. I sat working on a long-winded reply regarding this pet peeve of mine but decided to can it and just say this:
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
Susan
The beginning’s good, but I’m inclined to agree with Energy. Also the thre hour session thing. I played for 10 hours in a session before (and they were still going when I left) and I found that there was a natural ebb and flow of speed and energy, which was nice. This, I believe is also true of the standard 3 hour session, just not so obvious. However the point of ‘don’t play faster than you can well’ is a very good one.
Jo.
I think the article starts out with the obvious: Don’t play faster than you can. Nobody can disagree with that rule, even though many players (myself first & foremost) might need help recognizing what is “too fast” for them.
I think that the article shifts after that and attacks not the actual fast playing, but the session culture that makes speed desirable. I think it is true that there is a speed hype at sessions, and to me that is apart from the ebb & flow of the session. It is like a ballerina doing 32 foitees. Well, yes it’s neat, but it has no artistic content. It’s acrobatics, not art. I think the article attacks this aspect of it: the desire for speed. And I agree that this desire can interfer with the tune, no matter how fast or slow it is played in terms of bpm.
/bloomfield
[ This Message was edited by: bloomfield on 2002-11-15 09:54 ]
Bloo quoted …
The fine New York fiddler Patrick Ourceau once told me that the musician should be playing in service of the tune and not the other way around. The very talented Ray Coen of Sligo told me that the highest compliment a player can receive is, what a lovely tune, not, what an impressive talent you are. In other words, the tune isn’t a vehicle for the player to impress the audience with his virtuosity but rather the players virtuosity is a vehicle to impress the audience with the beauty of the tune.
I think this still fall short. It is a higher compliment to both virtuosity of the player and beauty of the tune take a back seat to what the player was trying to express in the tune. You play the lament of a lost love, which is the greatest complement.
“You played that well”
“That’s a lovely tune”
“Did you find love again?”
Or perhaps better yet, the unsaid compliment of the gentle nod as the tear leaks from the corner of the misty eye.
It seems that the author recognizes the pressure of speed at sessions and senses the need for something more than speed. However, he stops there. In this, do more, be more, get more done, have more world, the session is just an expression of what the player brings in from outside. If the players recognize this, it might be easier to tolerate it and to do something more. The session members can create an oasis, a reprieve from those pressures. They can create for the momment a balance. Not with a world that is faster tunes, nor more tunes, nor cleaner tunes, but a world were the tunes revive us, pacify us, invigorate us, challenge us, mystify us, calm us, appreciate us, seduce us, and tickle our fancies.
I think the author see’s the symptom of the problem, namely speed, but misses the cause.
In an urban society of strangers, our lack of connection with one another might be reflected in seeing a player’s ego as the source of the problem. On the other hand, the session itself is an appeal to a better solution, a hand out-stretched, a coming together, to connect and establish something that is more than the individual player and his (or her) ego.
So what would the author have the player do to slow down? Focus on the tune. I think if he’d pursued the problem deeper, he’d found the better solution was to focus on the other folks listening and playing. With this focus, a player is going to try to play the tune that says something to the group or provides something for the group or one of its members. The musician doesn’t have to see it, or have someone make a request, or even be able to put it words; not all the time. Sometimes, its just part of the musical sense as to what should be played, how it needs to be played, who needs to play it, how it needs to be heard, and who needs to hear it. This sense is like sensing the eye that is filled with unshed tears so we can play for the relief that is needed.
So the article starts well, and perhaps, that is enough for others to pursue the topic to a solution.
Having put voice to my idea of a better solution, I suggest that you …
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-11-14 17:31 ]
On 2002-11-14 13:04, energy wrote:
Allow me to play devil’s advocate…Interesting article. I find it lacking in some areas. For instance, he seems to assume that you can’t play fast and also play with feeling. Wrong. I’ve heard quite a few musicians who prove the opposite. For a big name, go listen to Liz Carroll. John Williams also springs to mind.
I don’t think the author is taking aim at Liz Carroll and John Williams. He’s talking good sense for the likes of you and me and most of us that hang out here.
Part of the underlying problem of the speed obsession is that most of us listen to far too much recorded ITM - as opposed to being out there hearing it played by the ordinary bearers of tradition in sessions and kitchens.
And in the music business, as we all know, speed and virtuosity sells - as it does in pub sessions where (in many parts of the world) the function of paid leaders is to put on a show that will sell more beer to an audience that usually knows sweet FA about music in general and the Irish tradition in particular.
PS Nate: I had the pleasure of sitting (listening only of course) next to Liz Carroll and Jerry Holland at a memorable post-festival session a few years ago. She didn’t play fast - but by hell she played well.
Ditto Energy: speed and doing service to the tune are most certainly not mutually exclusive. This is dance music. If you’re playing for a feis, your reels should clock at about 112 beats per minute. If you’re playing for a ceili, you could end up going a bit faster than that, depending on the dancers. I think it’s very important to be comfortable playing at these tempos and to be able to do it with appropriate lift and drive. Speed’s only part of the equation, but it is part of it.
Micho Russell was pretty much anchored at 100 bpm give or take a few. He probably wouldn’t have done much at a feis so.
I too sat with Liz Carroll, allthough I did play, Junior Crehan, Conor Keane, Michael Downes and a few others were also part of this [some five years ago]. Speed was not an issue, the session moved along at it’s usual averaging at 100-110 bpm. She did play a few tunes on her own and did a few party pieces that brought some smiles on the faces of the older guys.
It’s an old issue, the problem with speed is mainly I think that it can become a vehicle to keep the music together, often in combination with a strong, rigidly imposed rhythmic structure. It’s not great then, it becomes a crutch. See if you can play a tune really really slow and have all phrasing ornamentation and finer points in place. That’s much harder than playing really fast but once you can do that you can speed up to suit the need of the dancers or as the fancy takes you.
On another note, I am not a fast player at all but I have always thought the concept of a ‘slow session’ that I have seen mentioned on this board a hilarious one. I always envisage a big highway patrolman in the wings ready to hand out speeding tickets.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-11-15 11:02 ]
Not a highway patrolman, Peter, more a lollypop lady outside a kindergarten that caters for all ages!
I think that the energy in some playing can sometimes give the impression of speed.
Liz Carroll and John Williams are not what I would call overly fast players -check with a metronome to see, but they have tons of energy. Flook on the other hand often sound like they live off caffeine. (mind you they are not trying to be “Traditional Irish” and they are terrific players, so what the heck.
On 2002-11-16 00:41, Whistlepeg wrote:
I think that the energy in some playing can sometimes give the impression of speed.
Liz Carroll and John Williams are not what I would call overly fast players -check with a metronome to see, but they have tons of energy.
No, not overly fast, but definitely fast. I think you hit the head on the nose, though, the point is to play with energy, not speed. However, energy demands a certain amount of speed.
Actually, I think that Carroll’s precise note placemant and complete melodic control makes her sound like she’s playing slower than she actually is…OTOH, maybe it’s vice versa. It can be so confusing listening to a really good musician…
On 2002-11-15 09:28, StevieJ wrote:
I don’t think the author is taking aim at Liz Carroll and John Williams. He’s talking good sense for the likes of you and me and most of us that hang out here.
Well, I got the impression that by the end he was referring to anyone that plays faster than a certain tempo, probably about a 100 beats a minute. He mentions “bands”, and though he names no names, I think he is talking about the big commercial guns, Solas, Lunasa, Reeltime, etc. Maybe I’m wrong and he means your average pub band, but it sounded to me like he meant more than that.
PS Nate: I had the pleasure of sitting (listening only of course) next to Liz Carroll and Jerry Holland at a memorable post-festival session a few years ago. She didn’t play fast - but by hell she played well.
say while drooling a large amount of spit ono the floor Dude. Those are, like, two of my absolute favorite fiddlers. Life is so unfair… 
But, yeah, sometimes I wonder if Liz Carroll’s more natural groove isn’t a little bit slower. If you listen to earlier stuff, for instance her “Liz Carroll” album, the pacing is generally quite laid back. Makes me wonder if she hasn’t sped up just to sell records, but OTOH that fast rhymic groove doesn’t seem at all assumed, it sounds quite natural to my ears, anyway.
\
True Believer
Nate
[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-11-16 03:32 ]
On 2002-11-16 03:25, energy wrote:
No, not > overly > fast, but definitely fast. I think you hit the head on the nose, though, the point is to play with energy, not speed. However, energy demands a certain amount of speed.
I don’t think energy demands speed at all. Look at the playing of Martin Hayes - amazing energy while playing in the old Clare style; Micho Russell - his forte was his energy (at an average 100bmp); Paddy Canny - amazing phrasing and energy and no use of speed; Kitty Hayes - 'nuff said. The list goes on and on.
Dance music is just that - for dancing. Now, if you’ve got a room full of cloggers, well have a ball. But I don’t think dancers (I’m not talking about feis, competitions 'n such) are looking for speed but lift and rhythm to dance to. The old “it’s got a good beat, I’ll rate it a 65”, for those of us that remember.
Teri
Now that is true to an extend, I jsut got a tape of Micho Russell playing with a few locals for sets [in 1962], that was at his usual speed. You do get dancers that like a bit more woosh and you have to give it to them. I remember playing during the summer for a group of dancers that included a good few of the dancing teachers involved with the Willie Clancy week and Brooks Academy in Dublin, Terry Moylan, Jerry Reilly that whole crowd and they wanted a good bit of speed for their sets. But you still want lift as well.
My own inclination is to assign a certain speed that seems to fit individual tunes. (I’m constantly reminding myself to slow down to a manageable speed, like everyone else.) Maybe it’s the way I heard the tune first played (Jolly Tinker very fast by the Chieftains, Bucks of Oranmore fast by Paddy Keenan, Golden Castle slow by Martin Hayes, etc.) Maybe, if I heard a slow version of Bucks of Oranmore, I might wake up to a different realization, but I can only imagine it relatively fast at this point. When King of the Fairies gets played at a session, I invariably wish people would slow way down because there is so much texture that can be played with at a stately pace. Some tunes take on a very individual character when played at certain paces. I can’t imagine playing everything at the same pace, whether fast or slow.
Tony
There once was an old man who fiddled
He tried to bow far too fast
But in spite of the help of Viagra
He found that he just couldn’t last
He tried a few vitamin tablets
Some garlic and cod liver oil
His fiddle got quicker
His joints, they were slicker
And his reels they started to boil !!!
On 2002-11-16 12:00, Teri-K wrote:
On 2002-11-16 03:25, energy wrote:
No, not > overly > fast, but definitely fast. I think you hit the head on the nose, though, the point is to play with energy, not speed. However, energy demands a certain amount of speed.
I don’t think energy demands speed at all. Look at the playing of Martin Hayes - amazing energy while playing in the old Clare style; Micho Russell - his forte was his energy (at an average 100bmp); Paddy Canny - amazing phrasing and energy and no use of speed; Kitty Hayes - 'nuff said. The list goes on and on.
Dance music is just that - for dancing. Now, if you’ve got a room full of cloggers, well have a ball. But I don’t think dancers (I’m not talking about feis, competitions 'n such) are looking for speed but lift and rhythm to dance to. The old “it’s got a good beat, I’ll rate it a 65”, for those of us that remember.
Teri
Well, I certainly wouldn’t describe any of those players as having large amounts of energy playing at their normal tempos. Extremely fine, rhythmic, expressive music? Yes. But energy? I just don’t think so…maybe in the “pure drop” sense of the word? Maybe you could take a stab at defining ‘energy’. I suppose a good synonym for what I mean by “energy” is ‘drive’. Does that help define terms?
I think speed can add a palpable sense of excitement to music(assuming, of course, that it isn’t overused to the point where it hurts playing with expression and rhythm). I’ve danced before(ceili), and I think that really, it’s not the rhythm that dancers really want. It’s the feeling in the music and the atmosphere in the room that makes me want to dance. Some speed adds some excitement(some drive) to the feeling in the tunes, which, personally, I like. It makes me want to dance. I guess you could say that “drive” makes me want to put my feet on the floor… Of course, good rhythm is essential. I don’t claim you can play for dancers without it. Great rhythm is even better.
This makes me think of something that happened to me earlier…it’s pretty amusing. I recieved Paidraig O’Keefe’s CD “The Sliabh Luachra Fiddle Master” today, and on one particuliar track he plays this one set of slides. Well, he starts out very tentatively and soft, and then speeds up; he reaches a tempo that I think is real nice with good punch(at this point I’m starting to get into the tune), it gave the melody just the right amount of boost. Then, he speeds up further! I was a little disappointed, I think the tune suffered for it. Well, it’s funny, I’m criticizing Paidraig O’Keefe’s choice of tempo!