OK - I’ll admit it. Like Mamakash, I’ve been thinking of recorders lately, but I have not bought one yet. I’d like something chromatic to play baroque music on until I can afford either a baroque flute or to add keys to my Seery.
Also, I’d prefer to keep this secret amongst friends and not bring it into the open on some other recorder forum…
I know I’ve read that Aulos, Yamaha and Zen-on make good plastic recorders and that a curved windway is preferrable.
What about the wooden cheap ones? Are the Hohner pear wood baroque records pretty good? Any reason even if they’re not great I should get a plastic Aulos instead? I really like the look of these recorders (Hohner wood) best because they look, well, the most whistle-like. However they do not have a detachable bell so you can’t move the bottom hole around. Is that really much of an issue?
Oh, one other question - Is a “descant” recorder the same as an English/Baroque one?
Soprano fingers closest to flute / whistle, but alto is usually more useful for playing Baroque literature. Soprano / tenor has a different set of fingerings from alto / bass, where the bell note is F.
I have played a Zen-On “Bressen” plastic recorder and was extremely impressed with the quality of tone it produces.
In my opinion you are far better off with a good quality plastic instrument such as this, rather than a cheap wooden recorder, which is usually cheap because things like a curved, tapering windway have been omitted.
Good luck!
Oh by the way, for your excuse, you might point out that most of the odd-key pieces in O’Niell’s 1800 are easily played on recorder.
For baroque music, if you want wood and not spend much money, I’d look at the entry to mid-level instruments of Dolmetsch, Moeck (not the school instruments), Mollenhauer (again, not the school series), Huber and Kueng. They are all not completely hand-made (in that price range), but at least looked at and fine-tuned by a human before they leave the workshop. To save a little money, don’t go for exotic hardwoods but buy an instrument in pear or maple. It will not last as long as the hardwoods, but you only notice if you really play a lot, like 1-2 hours/day for years. I did loose a maple recorder to mold that way once.
I recently acquired a Mollenhauer Denner Alto in pearwood for around 220 EUR. I’m more than happy with it, and I’m sure it will serve me well for baroque music of any levels of difficulty at 440Hz for many years.
You might have noticed I didn’t mention Hohner above. If you want to spend less than what I did on an Alto, I’d recommend a Yamaha or Dolmetsch plastic recorder, not a cheap wooden one.
Descant is the same as soprano. Recorders come in the following ranges:
Garklein in C (only for bat trainers and consorts)
Sopranino in F (consort, and some solo literature)
Soprano in D, Sixth flute (very exotic)
Soprano in C (the school recorder, consort, baroque solo literature)
Soprano in Bb, Fourth flute (very exotic)
Alto in G (renaissance consorts)
Alto in F (The solo recorder in baroque times, consorts)
Tenor in D, Voice flute (to play baroque traverse flute literature on a recorder, not too common)
Tenor in C (mainly consorts)
Bass in F (consort)
Great bass in C (consort)
Sub contra bass in F (consort)
The more exotic the instrument is, the more expensive it gets. If you want to play baroque flute literature, using a voice flute (Tenor in D) would be even historically correct, but you only get them hand-made, which is probably more expensive than what you had in mind How much do you want to spend?
Oh, I forgot: “whistle-like” looks probably mean the straighter lines of earlier (i.e. renaissance) or modern school recorders. Baroque recorders all have decorative rings and bulges. Which means that a recorder looking like a whistle is most likely either well beyond your price range, or not a good instrument…
I recently went down your same path. Actually, the path led and left me HERE!
What I learned from my research was that unless you are willing to spend $500 on a soprano, to stay away from the cheap woods. Zen On and Aulos were what most people recommended to me. Yamaha and Dolmesch were mentioned by a few people as well.
There is a gentleman in the midwest that takes a Zen On and modifies it to have a cedar windway and revoices them. Very nice to work with, much like Jerry and Mack. He does this for both the soprano and alto recorder. We had one of each and they sounded (and smelled) nice, but we decided to stick with the whistle for a variety of reasons. Wish I could remember his name and/or web address. Drats.
I agree-- start with a decent plastic. Once you can play some tunes and think you enjoy the recorder, you can start thinking about a wooden one. Those Mollenhauer Dream Flutes seem like a really nice relatively inexpensive option. I think you can get a soprano for under $100 US.
It’s in my post, above (the ones i’ve been resisting to buy). I don’t know that guy, but looking through his site, he seems like a very good place to start. If i had time, i’d definitely buy one of his Zen-Ons (they’re under $100), but as it is i have trouble giving the instruments i already have enough attention. Maybe when i retire.
Anyway, Paul or other cross-fipplers, do you recommend a soprano or an alto for a beginner who likes Baroque music?
Alto. Most of the solo sonatas from that time are for alto, it was the standard recorder, so if you read “flute a bec” or “flauto dolce” without a more specific key or description, it is meant for alto in F. Adult hands should have no problem with the fingering either, the holes are almost exactly in the same places as on my Dixon G hybrid. And it is more kind to your and your neighbours’ ears.
Shameful secret indeed. Well, no. But I love posting on and reading this message board. I wouldn’t want to go anywhere else.
I bought the soprano Rottenburg-style plastic recorder from The Whistle Shop. I know that they were recommended on this board and a recorder site. For thirty dollars, they’re really nice. . . comes with a case, a cleaning rod, cream for the joints and some instructions. And they sound nice and solid, it’s heavy and has some resemblence to wood in its weight and appearance. And I’m a drooler . . . big time . . . and prefer to play and fiddle around and squeak and honk and drool . . . and just swab it out at the end. No worries about cracks or oiling.
It’s really nice to move that bell . . . when I recieved it, it was turned slightly, which my pinky couldn’t reach. Now I have that hole lined up with the others and it’s very comfortable.
I’m having fun on mine and learning a few new moves. I haven’t explored the possibilities of playing in different keys. For simplicity sake, I’m playing in D and G, which is what all my irish music is in. I like the sound compared to a tin whistle . . . different but pleasent.
Alto Recorder was the chosen instrument for much Baroque solo music,and is often recommended as the ‘best’ instrument for adult beginners.I have an Aulos (plastic) which is a good instrument for the money.Those tweaked Zen-on altos read like a very good choice too.
However,as someone,like yourself,approaching Recorder from a Whistle background,I find that I can relate very well (as ‘well’ as I get! ) to my Yamaha plastic Tenor Recorder.
I find that you can think of it as a low D whistle with a couple of extra keyed notes stuck on the end.O.k, the fingerings around f/f# and c/c# are a little different,and some of the high note fingerings are decidedly odd,but it’s pretty easy to adapt from one instrument to the other.
Go on,BUY a RECORDER-you KNOW that you WANT ONE!
I have the Yamaha plastic tenor. I mess around with it from time to time. If the opportunity appeared to play in a group, i think i could play it. As you said, the fingering differences from whistle or flute are minor, mostly to do with F and F#. The sound of this particular recorder doesn’t speak to me very much, though. I feel it’s “plasticky” sounding.
I feel i don’t have enough time to support 2 hobbies: an Irish music and a Baroque music one. But i just got a Baroque flute, so we will see what develops… Really i still think of meself as a flute player. I have a fully keyed Classical (ahem! i mean Irish) flute, but i frankly don’t like the way i have to move my fingers to get to the keys. Coming from the modern flute, i like keeping my fingers in place, and the Baroque flute works this way too. Up and down, is the way to do it, no sideways movement thank you very much.
g
P.S.: Jayzus, we’re simul-posting, Kevin! I’m leaving on vacation soon, but hopefully sometime in January i’ll feel good enough about my playing on the traverso to put up a clip. I’d do it sooner, but i’m in a hurry now to put my affairs in order and get ready to go.
As far as the little pat of joint cream, it’s an irrelivant item . . . since I have a tube of cork grease for my Sweet whistle. But I’ve used the pat on the recorder’s joints, it was free, might as well.
I am extreamly anxious to put a tune for show in snips and clips. Am practicing a pretty tune . . . I’ve never posted . . . of any instrument, and am a bit shy to do so. I have to get the song to sound as good on tape as it does in my head. Are fledgling musicians tonedeaf . . . or just delusional?
I fully understand what you mean about the time constraints of studying Irish AND Baroque music - I’m always trolling through O’Neill’s,various Walton’s Irish collections,and now Quantz and Boland’s books!
Looking forward to hearing that Rod Cameron stick!
Re clips-I don’t know about being delusional- I’m probably more ‘demented’ than anything else!
Glauber - I can’t recall what maker’s baroque flute you bought. That’s my long term goal, but we’re looking to move this spring and need all the cash for that. Hopefully, after we recover from moving, I can save up and get a baroque flute. I’m leaning towards one of those Aulos Grenser (matte black version which supposedly sounds better than the glossy one) models unless the money fairy comes into my life and bequeaths an extra grand into my life for a Clive Catterall flute.
How easy is it to play chromatically with your baroque flute? How solid do the cross-fingered notes sound?
Eric, i bought a Rod Cameron “C A Grenser” model, with middle parts for A=440 (modern tuning) and A=514 (Baroque tuning).
I haven’t seen the matte Aulos. I’ve played a couple of notes on the shiny black and the white one. They’re both good, but the white one (the Stanesby) is better (but it’s in Baroque tuning only). Another option is to call or email Rod Cameron and find out which one of his apprentices took over the business of overhauling the black Auloses. He used to revoice it and add an A=415 middle joint. I think it used to cost $600, which is a majorly good deal. He doesn’t do that anymore, but rumour is that one of his apprentices is still doing it. Rod’s data is in this page (this is an alphabetical list of flute makers): http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~scott/flutemakers/
Sharps and flats… no, not solid. The term they use is “shaded”, they’re “shaded” notes. :roll: Part of the fun of Baroque flute is that each key signature has it’s own personality, and much of the personality comes from the way the sharps and flats sound on the flute. Really, the only really “bad” note is the first octave G#. IMHO, the fingerings are not hard, but you have to deal with things like A# and Bb, etc, are different notes (Bb is a shade higher than A#), there are different fingerings for each of the enharmonic pairs. But in the end, most of the fingerings make sense, it’s no harder than learning the fingerings for 3rd octave in a modern flute.
How much do you want to spend?
) to my Yamaha plastic Tenor Recorder.
