Searching for Reasonably Priced "Advanced" Whistles

Whistle
1

Hi there,

I am in the market for some whistles. I currently own a Doyle 4 key flute, some random old feadóg style whistle that plays a treat (D), a LÍR A, and a Susato C. I bought the Susato after losing my old one which my Aunt bought in 2010 or there abouts but the new design doesn’t hold a candle to the one I lost (sad face). It is really too loud and the higher octave is to me unplayable. The Susato I lost was my favourite whistle to play in gigs, great driving and steady tone with enough uumf to give ornaments a lovely crisp accurate sound.

Anyway, enough commiserating. I have ordered all the Burke high D’s to try out, 5 in total. So I will see how they are when they arrive. That said I would someday love to own the entire array of keys (19 I suppose) and a family or Burkes and Goldies is just a lil spennie for a wee man such as I am.

My thinking at the minute is to buy the O’Brien Improved Eb, D and C; as well as a few of the Freeman tweaked (discerning which sound nice based on Crawford’s YouTube samples).

Just to eliminate some options. Not a fan of Lír, Killarney, Wild. I just don’t think they play well IMO. Dixons are ok but hit or miss and are a type of meh whistle :face_with_diagonal_mouth:. I enjoy the chiff of my old feadóg but only minor chiff. I imagine factory generations are played incessantly in hell. I suppose I am after a sort of whistle in the haystack in that I want a brand that produces lovely whistles but not at the price of €250 or more per whistle, and the lower whistles obviously become extortionately expensive if you wish to but a dram of them.

I have tried very few wooden body whistles but the woody sound never appealed to me. I play C-nat with OXXOOO fingering and I am not willing to do any other (I also half hole ofc but only when it suits the note order).

What recommendations do you lovely cairde have for me. Hermit Hill Folk Instruments (HHFI have high ($100) and Alto ($125) whistles, they sound decent on the Tube but wondering if ye have experience with them?

The alternate option is just to get a selection of whistles (couple burkes, couple goodies and fill the rest in with HHFI, O’Brien or whateva. The reason I need keys is to be able to play gigs with singers/guitarists. I could just get a C to cover C and F and and an Eb to cover X,Y,Z etc but I’m a greedy gut.

I’m shooting this into the ether hoping that some of yas could help me in my journey to whistle and flute supremacy.

Beannacht Dé oraibh,

Ben :flute:

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Do you plan on keeping all 5 Burke high Ds? If you’re worried about price, I would say that a single one would do you just fine, and you could then get some of the more common keys in Burke as well if you like them.

For a mix of price and playability I have found Susatos to be perfectly usable in the “weird” keys. I have a C# and a B that mostly get use accompanying singers, with the C# occasionally coming in handy at Eb sessions. Both sound and play better than the Susato high Ds I’ve tried, which I chalk down to the differing bore-to-length ratios as you go down the scale.

But I might not be much help because the Killarney D is my favorite D, so we may have differing tastes. What is it about the “Sindt-style” whistles that you don’t like? Certainly a set of all the keys Killarney makes would be relatively affordable, but if you don’t like ‘em, that’s no use. I also wonder if you are going to like the O’Brien or the Freeman tweaked whistles if you do not like the Killarneys, which have a similar bore size and definitely do not sound or play like an old Susato. My sense from your write-up is that you might like whistles that you can put more air through (and get more volume from), and those tweaked whistles by and large aren’t really that.

3

Piggybacking off of bigsciota, what is your general whistle preference? You aren’t a fan of wooden whistles, but have you thought about PVC? Goldfinch makes a well-regarded PVC whistle. If you don’t like the thin-walled narrower-bore whistles in the style of Feadog and Generation, maybe something like the MK Midgie would be ideal? It’s a bit expensive, but if you like that style of whistle (Aluminium, thicker bore, more backpressure), it would help to narrow down the search. Rui Gomes would be another, less expensive, option in that category. Syn might also be a contender? And finally, the Kerry Optima would be my last thought.

(Disclaimer: I haven’t played any of the brands I’ve mentioned, as my preference for a whistle is decidedly my tweaked vintage Generation. These brands are just ones to look into, and maybe other whistlers can chime in with their thoughts on the specific brands.)

4

Thanks for the replies @bigsciota and @WhistlingGuitar,

I’ll just reply to some of the points in turn.

Just bought them all to try, Padraig McGovern the piper taught me the whistle and played a brass Burke I believe that sounded lovely. I find with whistles it is nigh impossible to tell if you’ll mesh with a whistle without playing it.

As far as Susatos go, I was hoping to buy more of them before getting my new C one that didn’t play the same as the one from circa 2010.

It’s been a minute since I played Killarneys and Wilds but I found the Killarneys to clog quite a bit. Can’t give much more info than that; I thought they were slightly shrill also (sorry to dig your fav whistle). The Lír A I have is slightly out of tune to my ear and a lil hollow sounding.

I have a green head / brass body old generation/feadóg type whistle that is my main D at the minute (it has no brand name). So I do like that type of whistle once it plays well. They can be tricky for playing gigs in loud pubs because of the volume although I’ll hopefully invest in a decent condenser mic to help.

This is partly why I posted on the forum, I do not quite know what I want myself. I returned a Syn Eb/D/C whistle set that didn’t sound great to moi. And the non OXXOOO C-nat was a dealbreaker.

As PVC goes @WhistlingGuitar I played my cousin’s low D PVC whistle in our band a couple of times but I didn’t like it much. I listened to a sample of Goldfinch whistle playing on YouTube and find the sound a bit hollow. I found the same for the Rui Gomez whistles, a similar sound to the longer Dixon whistles which I found to be slightly airy and hollow.

Listened to whistetutor play the MK midgie there and it sounds great in fairness. Another option if I don’t enjoy the Burkes. I also listened to some of the Kerry Optima range and it is a strong contender especially at the price point so thank you for that :slightly_smiling_face:

I am wondering whether the O’Brien / Freeman’s are a good idea. When I switch from my flute to the old feadóg style I have I miss the uumf of the flute which is a feeling I didn’t have with my lost Susato C. I actually picked it up more than my flute and it caused me to practice more.

I’d imagine a dream set for me would be Burke/Sindt D, Old Susato C/B, and Goldie whistles in all the alto and low varieties; along with a sprinkle of feadóg style just for that classic whistle sound when you pine for it. The reason I put Sindt in there despite not warming to Sindt clones is cause I’d imagine it to be better and that it has a complex but clear sound but who knows.

I hope this additional info helps your appraisals. I believe I am coming across as a picky prima donna so sorry in that regard.

Ben

6

Sindts and Killarneys are very similar, to the point that if you like one you’ll probably like the other and if you don’t you probably won’t.

My other bit of advice if you’re unsure about things is to watch eBay, DoneDeal, etc. and buy whistles as they come up. Sell the ones you end up not liking, keep the ones you like. I now have a hodgepodge of whistles chromatically from Eb to A that I really like, and did not spend very much on after I followed this strategy. It takes a while, but you end up with a set you’re happy with. A lot of people I know have bought sets of whistles from one maker only to find that actually they might like, say, the Bb but not the C, or the high D but not the A. And they end up basically following the same process anyway.

As for specific whistles, the MK whistles I’ve tried in the low range have been very nice, but I haven’t tried the Midgie. My low D (that doesn’t get played much TBH) is a Burke, which is also nice (and the F is a great whistle as well). But I’m unaware of many makers outside Susato, Goldie, and Burke that make a full range of whistles, especially those weird middle keys like Ab or F#. Susatos would be the budget option there, and are perfectly serviceable in that range.

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,

If a particular fingering for Cnat is a hard condition, the Sindt is not for you

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No problems about being picky! That’s the beauty of whistles, they are cheap enough, and hold their resale value enough, that you can try quite a few before settling on one you like. I’d suspect that the current “no-name” whistle is something like a Walton’s. I suspect you’ll like the Burkes. As several others on here have mentioned in the past, harder-blowing players typically prefer them, as they can lean into them more and get the tone they want out of them. But also, Goldie whistles are known for having a high backpressure too, so they might be good in the high range as well.

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First of all: when I started to play (many, many years ago…) there was NO whistle that would play an in-tune Cnat with two fingers. If you wanted to play Cnat, the answer was, either half-hole or play OXX XOX and practice until you can play it right - in fact, the two-finger version was called “the false Cnat”, while the other fingering was considered “the right Cnat”.
Obviously enough, many players were asking for two-finger Cnat, so whistle makers started experimenting, which in most cases resulted in a working two-finger Cnat - at the expense of a flat C# - the only exception I’ve come across so far were McManus whistles, which are great, but of course wooden and a bit pricey. From what I know about instrument making the only way to achieve this is greater wall thickness, I don’t think you’ll ever get this with a thin-walled brass tube. So if you don’t want wood or plastic, which can give greater wall thickness without making the instrument uncomfortably heavy, you’ll have to learn to play a proper Cnat in whistle fingering.
If your entire array of keys is 19, that means you either have exceptionally fine hearing and can discern between C# and Db, or between A# and Bb - if that is the case, playing with equally tempered instruments like piano, box or guitar (or pretty much any instrument other than pipes, which are in just tuning, or fiddle, which can do anything the player is capable of) must give you a pain in the ear. If that is not the case, you should learn about enharmonic equivalent, and you’ll find that you don’t really need THAT many whistles… :wink:
In fact, I’ve done almost 40 years of professional playing with various singers/guitarists, with no more than a low D and G, and high C, D and Eb, only occasionally using a Bb and high F whistle - although I do admit that at times I have wished for a low F and a high E.
To make it short - I’m afraid what you’re looking for doesn’t exist, everything that does exist seems to be not to your liking, or is too expensive - or both…
You can either put up with what does exist AND is in your price range, or be unhappy for the rest of your life… :wink:

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Yes, I was going to mention the avoidance of the ol’ forked fingering may exclude some fine playing items from one’s possible options. Seems a bit of a “rigid” stance over a minor option in fingering.

I don’t know about more recent Gens but I still have some I bought in the mid 70s that play fine-at least to me. Maybe you could find some of those on eBay or wherever and see what you think- if you could bring yourself to deal with the fingering. Or maybe you could adjust the holes to fit your preferences. (Maybe?) Read the tweaking threads.

I don’t know if this follows for the smaller MKs as I only have a low D and low F but as Panceltic Piper pointed out here at one time -at least on the low MKs- one blows the lower octave close to the breaking point and the upper with less push than on other makes. So rather somewhat counterintuitive to the “normal” method. Thought you might wish to know that.

Sorry about your Susato loss. One of my favorite Bbs is my old narrow bore Susato from when he first started making them again. I love it. The others-my old Gens.

Reyburns are great whistles if you could find some used. But when I got mine Renaldo advised me they took the forked fingering. I told him that’s what I naturally start with anyway when I pick up a whistle until I find out differently. But I guess that just shows my age.

Happy hunting and let us know how it goes.
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That is good know cheers.

Also useful. I will most certainly end up with a hodge podge as well.

@Mr.Gumby I completely agree that wonderful music can be played on whistles that are considered by some/many to be “bad”. It is a personal preference at the end of the day. Squaky generations just don’t suit me, I can play them but it is like a hurl or a particular mug you like in your kitchen. Someone else might think that mug is too big or what have you but it fits with you. The whistle chooses the whistler Mr Grumby. And yes I’d avoid the Sindt due to the Cnat.

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@bigsciota Here’s some pics of the Walton-like whistle (link). I am looking forward to getting the Burkes, and I’ll hopefully buy an Alto F Goldie or the like from them at some point so test em out.

@MichaelLoos I know I should learn the alternate Cnat form but it is just one of them things I am unwilling to do. I might be limiting my options but there are still options. Does anyone know if Kerry whistles use two-finger Cnat? I also use the two-finger Cnat in pretty much all my BCD’ triplets because I like the way it pops, a technique I learned from the flute player Dave Sheridan.

As keys go, I just want to be able to play in every key and have the option of playing either a higher or lower whistle in said key. How many whistles would in fact cover all keys? Am I right in saying each whistle plays (without half holing) two keys? D=D and G, C= C and F. Or am I mistaken? My cousin generally sings in F but other singers I’ve played with have sung in keys that I haven’t had on in my toolkit.

@The_Lurking_Fear I would say the say the same thing about the Cnat fingering, I just can’t be bothered is the long and short of it, I’d prefer to buy one where I don’t have to change. Don’t think I’d have issues with the blowing pressure on the MK, at least I’ve never found it difficult before when switching between whistles.

How do people find learning to play OXXXOX? I know this is not the case with you. I think I’d find it difficult.

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I use a variety of Cnat fingerings depending on what suits the instrument and the tune. I don’t find OXXXOO or OXXXOX very hard to integrate into playing, it’s just a matter of sitting down and practicing a bit. I certainly wouldn’t let it get in the way of buying a whistle or a flute. I have found various whistles and flutes that I like have differently-voiced C#s and Cnats, and adjust accordingly when playing one or the other. As @MichaelLoos points out, very often the fully-in-tune Cnat at OXXOOO comes at the cost of the C#, and I’m not sure I like that tradeoff.

I’m still a little perplexed at the idea that cost is an issue, but you’re willing to buy all 5 Burkes just to find 1 you like. I personally would rather have a D, Eb, and C that I love than a D, Eb, C, G#, and Enat that I like. I have owned both high and low E whistles in the past and rarely if ever found much use for them, outside of the novelty of easier playing of something like MacArthur Road (which is already very straightforward to play on a standard D whistle).

My personal recommendation for you, given the whistles you’ve liked, are Burkes or possibly Goldies for the “important keys,” as many as you feel you can afford, and fill in the rest of the keys with Susatos. That approach has worked for me, and the Susatos I have in “odd” keys are perfectly suitable when I need them.

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I taped the top hole of my high D Sindt to allow me to use my preferred oxx ooo C natural fingering. Works just fine.

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Fair enough. I am going to be returning 4 or even all 5 of the Burkes if I don’t like them. I do not want 5 different D Burke so the cost is €250. I’m not stuck for money but I’m not at all able to afford let’s say 3 Burke and 3 Goldies. You could be right that I should perhaps buy well once rather than trying to reduce the price and be unhappy but most whistle makers and sellers have a return policy so I’m only losing on shipping which I can cope with.

And that to me is a trade off I’m willing to take. Perhaps I could learn other fingerings but I’d rather focus my energy other places and there are options available. It comes down to personal preference.

I played with a band in Melbourne and the set list had the following keys:

C

D

Am

A

Dm

B

F*

E

Em

F

C*m

What is the minimum amount of whistles I would need to play all these keys? I didn’t do music in school so I just pick keys by ear and transpose by ear so I’m not well versed in all the theory.

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How does that look @eskin, is the hole partially taped?

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You could very easily do those keys with 4 whistles: E D, C, and B and have multiple options for most of those keys.

C: C

D: D

Am: D or C

A: E or D

Dm: C

B: B or E

F#: B

E: E or B

Em: D or C

F: C

C#m: E or B

If you dropped the E you could do it with 3 whistles, playing A either on the D whistle or possibly using “C” fingerings on the B, depending on where it sits and how much you need the G#. The only key above that would be slightly problematic would be F# if you really need the E#, which you would have to half-hole on the B whistle. If that was a very important issue, an F# whistle would get you there and give you more options for B and C#m.

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I have been assuming that you’re based in Ireland given the info in your post; if so, you should be aware that buying anything from the US or other countries outside the EU means you have to pay duties. That adds up quick and I don’t know the process for getting a refund if you are then returning the merchandise. Something to keep in mind. If you’re not based in Ireland, disregard this!

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I have played the Tony Dixon aluminum high D and found it sounded great and responded very well. It’s now also available in heavy wall brass, same specs as the aluminum DX006 high D, just in brass, which gets high reviews too. The Tony Dixon alto A in aluminum also has a great tone and fast response, very clear and precise. Video reviews of those are on YouTube. Prices considerably less than premium whistle brands. Depends what cha need.

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I’ve gone down all those routes.

Many years ago I went through a Susato phase, owning:

-Mezzo A, Ab, G, Gb, F

-Low E, Eb, D, C

In the end I just didn’t care for how they played overall, though there were exceptions:

-I ended up with three different Susato Mezzo A’s with three different bore sizes, the narrowest-bore one was a superb player.

-Susatos got better as they got lower and the Low C was very nice.

Then I went through a Burke phase, owning:

-High D’s (wide bore alloy, narrow bore brass, the latter being the better player IMHO)

-Mezzo A, G, F

-Low Eb, D

I saw that Burkes, for a given key, have a wider-than-usual bore and wider windway, both contributing to Burkes requiring more volume of air to be pushed through the whistle, meaning more frequent breaths.

They also required more support, more “push”, for the 2nd octave especially High B, what I call a “stiff” 2nd octave.

Lastly I went down the Colin Goldie route, currently owning

-Mezzo F

-Low D and Low C

These are all superb players and I think my searching for the best Mezzo and Low whistles is over. They’re probably the most-efficient whistles I’ve come across, being as loud as any but needing less volume of air to be pushed through meaning less frequent breaths.

They have, for me, the perfect compromise between ease of the 2nd octave and volume in the low octave.

BTW Colin makes different windway-sizes, for Low D I have both the “medium blower” and “soft blower”, the soft is slightly less air-efficient but gives an easier, sweeter 2nd octave yet big low notes.

Here’s my current roll with

Alba Bass A and Low E natural (both super players)

Goldie Low C, Low D, and Mezzo F (all superb)

Generations for High C, B natural, Bb, A, and G (the G a Jerry Freeman)

Feadog c1980 High D

Killarney (first model) High D

Susato (earliest model) Mezzo G

Geoffrey Ellis “Selkie” vertical Irish flute in D

Here’s me demonstrating all the whistles in my roll (a few years back).

I receive no money from YouTube.

Irish whistle demo high, mezzo, low, bass

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About Sindt whistles, I did try some:

-High D

-set with one head and three bodies for B natural, Bb, and A.

They had solid smooth voicing and a nice round tone, but ultimately I liked my vintage Feadog D better than the Sindt D, and I liked my modified Generations for B natural, Bb, and A better than the Sindt versions.

About crossfingered C natural yes, in fact for High D I put the Sindt head on a vintage Generation D body that had tuning more up my street.