Are Billy Brocker’s Reel and Crowley’s #1 variations of the same tune? And does anyone have any information on Billy Brocker the person?
I would say they are different tunes. The first parts are quite dissimilar to my ear. On the other hand, the second parts are indeed close enough to one another. But I have no idea whether the similarity is accidental or not.
They certainly belong to the same “family” of tunes, one that includes eg last night’s fun. (Actually I find the beginning of last night’s fun sounds closer to the beginning of Billy Brocker than does that of Crowley’s.)
Sylvain
I’d like to know the same thing. The first parts are different but the
second part of the common version of Billy Brockers sounds to me just
like 2nd part of Crowley’s #1. I’ve been told that it’s not uncommon for
that sort of thing to happen in tunes. But I first had it with a different
second part, that doesn’t sound at all like Crowley’s. Maybe what I have
isn’t called Billy Brocker’s at all, just having the same first part. Anyone
come across this setting? (hope its ok to post abc here)
X:100
T:Billy Brocker’s?
S:Mike Rafferty
Z:lesl
M:C|
K:D
d3B|:AF~F2 A2dB|AF~F2 GFGB|AF~F2 A2de|1 fdgf efdB:|2 fdgf e2de||
faaf g2ba|faaf fed2|faaf g~g2b |afdf e~e2z|
faaf g2ba|faaf fedB|dBAF ABde|fgeg fedB|A8||
The version of Billy Brocker that I play, I learned from the playing of Tommy Keane (from his CD The Piper’s Apron) and Mary Bergin (Feadog Stain 2) the JC’s ABC version is basically it. The Crowley’s #1 I learned originally from John Williams the standard version is also the one on JC’s ABC finder. The A section of both tunes seems to me to be basically a variation of the same thing. I agree with you Lesl that the B sections really are the same. But maybe it is like the Reel with the Birl, Drowsie Maggie etc. - different tunes but lots in common!
Anyway, if Stevie or Peter or anyone else have any thoughts on the matter, I would love to hear them - also, I still would like info on the person Billy Brocker if anyone has any.
Thanks
Sue
My thoughts are that all Irish tunes sound basically the same. I’m surprised you haven’t figured this out yet!
Seriously, trying to pin down definitive versions of anything is a bit of a futile enterprise. Tunes move around a lot, and it is good that they should.
A record I bought recently, the 2-CD Michael Gorman compilation, got me thinking a lot about standardized settings. A lot of his settings, even of his own compositions, esp. The Mountain Road, are very different from what passes today for the “correct” versions.
I mean it’s great that we can all travel the world and sit down in sessions in many countries and know the same settings as everyone else. But there’s a downside.
One disadvantage is that many of us are unable to sit and listen to anyone play a tune. If we think we know it, we jump in. After all they must be playing the version I know. The one off so and so’s record or in so and so’s book.
Whereas if we forebore and listened, we might learn something. Players would feel freer to rework the tunes and add little touches for our enjoyment. And if we didn’t learn something, then the player concerned would realize that he or she had to make it more interesting for us, so he or she would be forced to learn something.
I love catching live performances by Tommy Peoples. You never know what bog standard tune he is going to reinvent for you, transforming it, turning something familiar into something new and wondrous. Of all the players I’ve heard, Tommy is the one who is least likely to keep trotting out a well-oiled concert routine.
But I often feel that if Tommy walked into our local session, as soon as anyone realized he was playing The Lark in the Morning (might take them a couple of turns through) they’d all jump in with the “standard version”. Then again, a session is a session, so maybe he’d be playing it straight, I don’t know.
I’m going off at a tangent here. But it’s funny Sue, the day before reading your post I had been playing Crowley’s and when I came back to the start of the tune I went into BB. First time that has happened and I’ve known both for years. Is there a name for this kind of coincidence? 100 monkeys or something.
As for Billy Brocker (there was no “apostrophe s” the way I was told the tune title) I think it might not be a person but a corruption of an Irish phrase. I don’t know why I think that and I might be completely out to lunch about this - as I am about many things.
Stevie,
Maybe there is a psychic Irish Music connection between Montreal and Winnipeg!! Or maybe we are in …the Twilight Zone…
I know what you mean about people jumping into sessions with “their” version of a tune. I selfishly keep many tunes to myself even though I blush to admit am a music teacher (!) because if I play them at a session, they will be taped, learned incorrectly, and the next time I start that tune it will be obliterated by a bluegrassy version, with a strong “back beat”. Sometimes I wish I played banjo like my partner. Nobody but nobody can obliterate him when he is on a roll. Whistle is a different matter - too subtle.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts on Billy Brocker’s (both Mary Bergin and John Williams list it with apostophe but who knows where they got the tune from - no info on their albums about it other than Mary’s which says she got it from the Castle Ceili Band repertoire).
One of the things that attracted me to this genre, way back when, is the ability of good players to create wonderful versions of already lovely tunes. Truly a living tradition.
By the way, somewhere I found that another name for Billy Brocker’s is
Budgie on the Griddle…or is this yet another tune - I love the name!!
Sue
StevieJ said
I’m going off at a tangent here. But it’s funny Sue, the
day before reading your post I had been playing Crowley’s and when I
came back to the start of the tune I went into BB. First time that has
happened and I’ve known both for years. Is there a name for this kind of
coincidence?
I hope you do not mind my chiming in on this, but couple weeks ago at our
session, Billy B got resurrected also, and I don’t even know either of you!
As for Billy Brocker (there was no “apostrophe s” the way I was
told the tune title) I think it might not be a person but a corruption of an
Irish phrase.
At the same session, a friend from Co. Leitrim said the same thing. He
thought it might be a word and not a name. I’ll try to find out more.
Cheers, lesl
I have always opinions on matters but my computer is at the menders at the minute [and has been down for weeks now] and I have too little time to read whole thread in the library, let alone respond to them fully. As to Billy Brocker’s, I would think that one goes back to the recording by the Castle Ceiliband [in a set with Big Pat’s, which Tommy Keane follows as far as I remember]. Padraig MacMathuna recorded it before Tommy did I think, as the Laurel Tree or something similar. I’ll be back on line in a few days and may catch up with recent discussions.
One disadvantage is that many of us are unable to sit and listen to anyone play a tune. If we think we know it, we jump in. After all they must be playing the version I know. The one off so and so’s record or in so and so’s book.
Whereas if we forebore and listened, we might learn something. Players would feel freer to rework the tunes and add little touches for our enjoyment. And if we didn’t learn something, then the player concerned would realize that he or she had to make it more interesting for us, so he or she would be forced to learn something.
I love catching live performances by Tommy Peoples. You never know what bog standard tune he is going to reinvent for you, transforming it, turning something familiar into something new and wondrous. Of all the players I’ve heard, Tommy is the one who is least likely to keep trotting out a well-oiled concert routine.
But I often feel that if Tommy walked into our local session, as soon as anyone realized he was playing The Lark in the Morning (might take them a couple of turns through) they’d all jump in with the “standard version”. Then again, a session is a session, so maybe he’d be playing it straight, I don’t know.
Well said, Brother!
While I enjoy the stimulation and sociability of the average session, playing in one is more “care and maintenance” of one’s playing than helpful towards either real expression of the potential of a tune or the development of musicianship.
Just be careful he doesn’t ream out the hard drive 
I think that’s about what he did, it’s back now and not working well at all, I lost all old e mails, addresses, web links and will have to re-install jsut about everythings. Lovely.