Rule 21 - The Ban

We’re shifting this discussion from the Uilleann Pipes forum:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=31753

Although the ban has now been removed, it’s a serious topic but was not in the right forum. I’d like to continue it here, so picking up where we left off:

First of all, Rule 21 was a reaction to the Bloody Sunday massacre when B Specials (most of whom were WWI veterns of the British Army) killed 12 people at Croake Park. It has nothing to do with the RUC. Banning members from the RUC from made as much sense as banning members of the NYPD or the Surête du Québec.

Secondly, Rule 21 discouraged Catholics from joining the RUC, and contributed to its not being a force which was representative of the population which it policed.

Finally, making judgements from Cosy Quebec? 1. This place isn’t cosy, it’s goes from sweltering in the summer to arctic in the winter. 2. Quebec has a long history of tragedy with regard to the Irish, over 5,000 Irish (Catholic and Protestant alike) died and were buried on Grosse Ile during the famine years. 3. My judgment as to the riduculous and infamous nature of Rule 21 was formed when I lived in Ireland - and no, it wasn’t cosy there. It was damp and windy.

PJ
Rule 21 was introduced for a good reason and served its purpose well.

When the RIC was disbanded it was replaced in the Northern State by the RUC and the ban continued, as the ideals of the the Irish Free State and its Constitution regarding the whole of the Island had not been realised.

To overlook this main point in your example is folly,the RUC was seen as the Crown therefore the ban.
What the NYPD or The Canadian Polis have to do with it is anybodies guess.

Of course Catholic Nationalists were discouraged from joing the RUC and the RUC didnae want Catholic Nationalists in its ranks either.Ye would have had to be mad to join.I think ye are making the mistake of trying to put relatively modern and recent developements in Northern Ireland into the context of the past.
Today the RUC doesnae exist it is now the PSNI who are actively trying to recruit Catholics to its ranks,something the RUC never did.
The GAA has lifted its Ban,
The Republic of Ireland has dropped its claim to the whole of the island from the constitution.
Different times different conditions but that doesna make the original rule ridiculous and infamous as ye put it …I really do not think ye are qualified to judge what is and what is not good for Ireland based on ye having lived there for a time.
I am quite amazed at the long history of tragedy with the Irish in Quebec which ye quote and eroneously compared with the National Struggle for Independence…6000 people died of disease whilst fleeing the famine.It didnae take long for those poor souls to die and in Historical terms was a very short period of time.
This all appears to be Revisionist Historyon yourpart at its very worst. :wink:
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

OK the NYPD was a bad example, but as a member of the Commonwealth, all Canadian police can be considered representatives of the Crown.

I didn’t just live in Ireland for a time. I spent the first 30 years of my live there. I then got out and travelled, got a little perspective, and came back for another stint before leaving permanently 4 years ago. In that respect, I’m as qualified to express myself as, say, a resident of Alba :wink: .

I agree 100% that the context is entirely different today than when the Troubles began, but history has a nasty habit of changing. But the Ban was an extremely immature reaction. It was a political version of “I’m going home and I’m bringing my ball with me”.

Revolutionist Historian?? That’s going straight into my CV.

PJ this is drawing to a conclusion I think…the fact that ye lived in Ireland for the best part o your life does not in itself make ye best **“qualified to judge what is and what is not good for Ireland”**my quote…
that is best left to the Lawmakers.
I did not say that ye could not “express” yersel,
"I’m as qualified to express myself as, say, a resident of Alba . " your quote.. that is a completely different matter and one I don’t have a problem with.
My Uncle was a founding member of the Free State Army he sat on the Army council and had imput to the Dáil at the very time Rule 21 was being implemented and approved by the majority of people who were living through the troubles.There was nothing immature about it at all and your reference to the ball(pun apart) is not doing yersel or the subject justice at all.
Ye just cannot divorce history from fact and transpose it into todays thinking and have the same argument.
It dosnae work like that…
I really do not have a clue what ye are referring to when ye say but history has a nasty habit of changing How can history change?What is this in relation to your argument???
I used the term revisionist not revolutionary so if ye want to be a Revolutionist Historian in your CV please don’t blame or quote me when they arrest ye :wink:
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

Uilliam, could you please expand a bit on your take of this “Rule 21”? Why do you think it wasn’t immature or reactionary? What do you think made it appropriate for the times?

djm

I know I’m not Uilliam, but I’ll give you my take on Rule 21 for what it’s worth.

The Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA) which is the governing body for gaelic sports in Ireland (mainly but not exclusively gaelic football and hurling) did not permit members of the Crown Forces (RUC/police, army, navy, etc) to become members and to play in its competitions.

I can remember seeing placards being hoisted at G.A.A. games which said “Ban the Ban!”

Very confusing for tourists trying to enjoy the match.

Slan,
D. :laughing:

… to show you how dumb I can be… as a tourist, I would’ve thought it an ‘anti’ anitperspirant campaign againt ban rol… oh, nevermind…

DJM Read the following article frae this link …It is self explanatory and gives very sound reasons not to think it immature or reactionary…
http://www.premierview.ie/rule_21mulcair2.htm
As one of the great monolithic organisations of this country, the GAA is rarely short of critics or controversies, but probably the most emotive and enduring controversy that affects the GAA is the so-called rule 21. This rule is stated in the GAA Official Guide in the area covering membership of the association. Rather than generally comment on the content of a rule with which most people are familiar, it is perhaps more appropriate to state the rule in its exact terminology; “Members of the British armed forces and police shall not be eligible for membership of the Association. A member of the Association participating in dances, or similar entertainment, promoted by or under the patronage of such bodies, shall incur suspension of at least twelve weeks”.

Two other definitions are worth noting before delving further into the rule 21 argument. One is the stated “Basic Aim” of the GAA – “The Association is a National organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 county Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes”. The other one which might be considered pertinent to this debate is the GAA’s stated position in “rule 8” – (a) The Association shall be non-party political. Party political questions shall not be discussed at its meetings, and no Committee, Club, Council or representative thereof shall take part, as such, in any party political movement. A penalty of up to twenty-four weeks suspension may be imposed for infringement. (b) The Association shall be non-sectarian. Perhaps the key thing to take out of this rule is that the GAA considers itself “non-party political”. It clearly does not deny itself the right to express opinions on political matters. It simply does not associate itself with any political party or organisation.

The GAA was founded during one of the most volatile periods of modern Irish history, as the national question came to the fore in political circles. In terms of mobilising the masses for future national requirements, the foundation of the GAA was very significant at this time, and the association itself was ideally positioned to benefit from the national mood. This “mood” was very much for quenching the huge English influence that had pervaded the country for many years. On day one, in keeping with the atmosphere that prompted its foundation, the new association excluded from membership, policemen, soldiers, and other people associated with “Britishness”. This anti-British stance would simply have been in keeping with the motives that influenced virtually any other organisation that was founded in rural Ireland around this time. Of course, as time passed, the GAA and the Irish Republican Brotherhood - if not quite being “inextricably linked” - shared huge mutual membership, and the GAA became a “breeding ground” where many of those who subsequently were huge players on the national question, first cut their organisational teeth.
It is remarkable that 117 years later, despite huge political changes, this rule is still such a source of controversy. Indeed some would suggest that the remarkable thing is that the rule still exists at all. Others would no doubt suggest that it is remarkable that the rule is still “required”! The infamous “Ban” i.e. the prohibition on GAA members playing or promoting sports considered quintessentially British, had been dropped at times by the GAA, before its final deletion in 1971, but despite affecting less “GAA people” this rule banning “British armed forces and police” from membership is still with us.

Given the nature of things when the GAA was founded, and indeed for the best part of 40 years after, there was a very obvious justification for this rule. The attention and suspicion from the Dublin Castle authorities, which surrounded both the GAA and the IRB, was ample cause to beware of anyone sympathetic to the British point of view. Of course, the GAA as an organisation itself -with its 32 county ethos - was automatically in conflict with the British anyway, so naturally it was hardly advisable to allow those who were “hostile” to infiltrate the association’s ranks. Many years have passed since this could be considered a reasonable interpretation of the situation, at least in the majority of the GAA’s strongholds ; although some GAA members in the six counties might justifiably argue that this reality has not changed for them over the years. Nevertheless, the question is continually being asked - even within the GAA - as to how the retention of rule 21 can be justified.


and a bit more…
From the History of the GAA
http://www.roundtower.ie/History/History_of_the_GAA.htm

1918
The gaa proscribed as a dangerous organisation by Dublin Castle. Gaelic Sunday becomes a day of massive national defiance of the defence of the realm act.

There ye go DJM I hope that clarifies a bit more ,and I am sure ye can see why at the time it was felt so important and why I think to dismiss it as “ridiculous and infamous” is quite offensive,not only to the GAA but to the Rebublic itself…and as a Citizen of the Republic I take offence at such ill thought out blandishements..
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[quote] First of all, Rule 21 was a reaction to the Bloody Sunday massacre when B Specials (most of whom were WWI veterns of the British Army)[quote]

I hate to be pedantic, but as history was the only subject I was any good at in school, it was actuallt the Black & Tans that shot up Croke Park, the B Specials hadn’t been invented at that time.
Also, you have to look at the GAA ban in perspective - at the time it was instituted, the RUC (a renamed RIC), and the British Army, were regarded by the Nationalist population as ‘forces of oppression’ which, in fact, is what they were. The Unionist majority in the north never allowed the Nationalists raise their heads and the Forces - in particular the RIC/RUC - were their frontline in keeping the Croppies down. The Ban came from the membership of the GAA.
Having said that, keeping it in place for so long did nothing to foster cross community relations over the years, but I suppose that was a difficult thing to consider when the RUC were kicking your hall door in.

I could be mistaken but I believe that “Black and Tans” was the nickname for the B Specials, due to the uniforms they wore, a mix of police and army uniforms.

Thanks, Uilliam. That puts things in perspective. What I get out of it is that the problem comes down to the schizophrenic nature of the GAA’s inception - was it a nationalistic political association with athletics as its public drawing card, or was it an athletic association whose members’ encounters with the English infused it with political motivations? The article points out why the Rule still exists - the 6 counties are not free yet, but for the south the point is no longer relevant. The solution is obvious - wait for the inevitable demise of English rule in the north, then drop the rule as redundant.

Just a pedantic question on semantics: hurley = hurling = Irish hockey?

djm

I could be mistaken but I believe that “Black and Tans” was the nickname for the B Specials, due to the uniforms they wore, a mix of police and army uniforms.

[/quote]

The official name for the Black and tans was the ‘Auxiliaries’. They were a mixture of ex WWW 1 soldiers and criminals given the choice of jail or Ireland. The B Specials were a reserve force for the RUC and only existed in the 6 counties. I’m open to correction but I believe there was also, for a while, an ‘A Special’ reserve force.

Emer - I stand corrected. Thanks.

djm - If one more Canadian asks me if hurling is Irish hockey or field hockey, :angry: :angry: … (incoherent ramblings)… :angry: :angry: :wink: . For all you need to know about hurling, check out www.gaa.ie

The American version of Hurling involves loads of beer and a toilet. :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

That’s also the Irish version, but only after the game. :party:

The site you quote calls it Irish hockey, and notes its similarities and differences to field hockey. What I wasn’t getting were the use of the words “hurling” and “hurly”. “Hurly” is the name of the stick used when playing hurling - this is the information I was looking for.

djm

Sorry djm. Hurley is the stick (cumann in Irish). It’s made from the ash tree and ironically, most hurleys used in Ireland today come from wood grown in Wales.

Hurling is the sport - it resembles field hockey, and the Scottish game Shinty, except that you can “rise the ball” - take it off the ground and either (briefly) carry it in your hand (3 steps - no more) or balance it on the end of the hurley and run with it (try do that with a hockey puck!!).

Sliotar (pronounced “shlit-tur”) is the ball used. It’s about the size of a base ball but not quite as heavy.

http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/jouvert/v4i1/cron.htm
This link has an excellent article which clearly spells out the political significance of the GAA from its inception

The key elements within are that the GAA was formed in 1884 along with rule 21… that is a clear 34 years before the Croke Park Massacre in Dublin and makes a nonesense of PJ’s assertion that it came about as a result of same.(It is also only 94 years since the Rebellion of 1798 which makes it even more relevent to the timeline I was discussing on another thread!)

The aim of the GAA was Nationalism… athletics being the cover.Three IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood)men sat on the original council..
I suggest ye read the article, it makes good reading.

The B specials were formed in the North after the founding of the Statelet there.They had bugger all to do with rule 21.and even less with Croke Park :boggle:
The “Auxies” as pointed out were used during the Tan War…
Rule 21 was implemented and supported by the majority of folks throughout the decades commonly known as the Troubles and on right up to the present day.It is only recently that circumstances have changed so dramatically to make the rule obsolete.

I mean how many times can ye be wrang PJ afore ye might admit it?I also feel that your offensive remarks be addressed as ye clearly didnae have the full facts but assumed or made up most before ye attacked the GAA.Come on redress the balance… :wink: :roll:
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

It is an excellent article and while I’ve not had a chance to read it all, it refers to “Rule 21 and previous bans” indicating that rule 21 may not be the original article.