Question re "feel" or reels, hornpipes

Trad Irish Music
1

I have a question about the “feel” of reels and hornpipes. To try to simplify the question, I’m going to define two terms.

“Swingy”: By swingy I mean that the notes on the beat are a bit longer than the notes in between. When people try to notate this they often use dotted eights followed by sixteenths. But really, IMO, this “swingy” feel would be better notated (theoretically) in 12/8 time, because there is an underlying sense of three notes per beat, rather than two or four.

“Straight”: By “straight”, I mean that eighth notes are pretty much of equal duration.

Now, I have noticed that hornpipes are usually, but not always, played with a “swingy” feel, while reels are usually, but not always” played more-or-less “straight”.

I think I’ve noticed that reels played slower are more likely to be played with the “swingy” feel. Perhaps hornpipes also get straighter as they get faster, I’m not sure.

I used to think that hornpipes were pretty much always played “swingy”, but a good box player in my town, who is really Irish and learned to play in Ireland, plays hornpipes very straight.

So, can anyone shed some light on all this or help me put it in some kind of context? Does the difference have to do with what part of Ireland the musician (or tune) comes from, or does it have more to do with tempo? Is it related at all to what instruments are being played (“swingy” would fit especially well on a fiddle, I would think), or is it just a matter or personal taste? Is either feel any more or less “traditional” than the other?

(Disclaimer: I do understand the limitations of written notation, but I couldn’t come up with a way to ask the question without resorting to it.)

Thanks for any thoughts.

–Jay

2

Just my $.02 worth, probably worth just about what you paid for it.

I think swinging the tune is one way to emphasize the beats, and may be used by itself or with other methods, such as ornamentation, breath emphasis, and articulation.

I think the real purpose of the swing is to emphasize the strength of the beat.

Best,

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

3

In general, the amount of “swing” does depend on the speed at which the tune is being played. It’s a lot easier to play a tune (whether reel or hornpipe) with that “swing” at a slower tempo. The amount of “swing” does also depend on the player’s style. When playing in a group - such as a session - “swing” is usually minimised. Not consciously, usually, or in any organised way; I think it’s just easier to integrate all the styles when the tune is played “straight”.
I also think that a lot of hornpipes are conducive to being “swung”; they tend to have a more casual, relaxed, less pressured feel than a lot of reels. And usually (though not always!) it’s possible to tell whether a tune is a hornpipe or a reel, even when it’s not being played in a definitely “swingy” style.
Deirdre

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Hi Jay

I knew a fellow once many years ago who was doing a doctoral thesis on Irish regional fiddle styles. He was analyzing the amount of swing (unevenness of note pairs) in the music of Michael Coleman, Denis Murphy and a few others.

He did this using a reel-to-reel tape recorder. He ran the tape over the heads by turning the reels back and forth by hand and used a crayon to mark the start of each note. He was then able to measure the distance between the marks and come up with relative swing quotients for the different players in different tunes.

He thus became an expert in these statistics. Did it make him a good fiddle player? I’m sorry to say, because I had great liking and respect for the man, that no it didn’t, not at all.

My point? If what interests you is developing a good style, I think questions of note lengths is the wrong way to go about it. Use your ears instead and let them tell your fingers what to do.

Of course if you actually want to know from an academic standpoint what is going on, fair enough - maybe you could try my friend’s method.

While I have no interest in such analytical approaches, this morning I tried some tunes that work well as hornpipes or reels and tried speeding them up incrementally to try to observe what happens when you shift from h’pipe to reel. It seems to me that there isn’t much difference, if any, in the note-length ratio. In my own playing, that is. Reels sound “straighter”, but I’m not sure they really are at the tape-and-crayon level.

Hornpipes played slow for step-dancers may be another matter - you sometimes hear them played in a distinctly “dotted” manner.

PS On the other hand, I find that “slow reels” sound much less swung than hornpipes so I’m probably wrong. Deirdre’s thoughts seem well on the mark.

5

My pipes teacher from Mayo in Willie week taught me a hornpipe which he played completely straight. The Irish people I usually play with when I’m over there are my relatives and friends in Cork - they tend to play everything ‘swung’ to different degrees, hornpipes literally triplets, and reels just a sort of ‘feel’ of swing.
So I think the area does have quite a big affect, but I’m sure there are other factors as well. Different tunes seem to lend themselves to be played in different ways aswell.
Jo.

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Maybe Ciaran O Maille is not to be taken as an example of a regional style.

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I agree that the amount of swing depends on the player’s style and on the tempo. But it could also depend on the player’s intention in a particular tune. For example, compare Micho Russell playing Scotch Mary vs Fermoy Lasses. (Please don’t think I’m obsessed by these recordings, I just happen to listen to them a lot these days, and the good thing about them is that everyone on this forum can get them and know what I’m talking about.)

Both tracks are played at roughly the same tempo, by the same player. Yet Scotch Mary has some swing, but Fermoy Lasses is rather straight. The difference in feel should be quite obvious.

In fact if you listen carefully, you’ll find that Scotch Mary is not uniformly swung. Some parts are more swingy, some straighter. Even the same bit might be played with a different feel at a repeat.

The only pattern I can see there is that phrases played slurred tend to be straight, while swing is more present when there’s a lot of tonguing (especially when the second note of a pair is tongued, as a result it is slightly delayed, for instance the g in eaag at the beginning of the B part).

So what counts is not just the note length ratio, it’s how it relates to other aspects like phrasing, accents, or articulation, and this depends on the instrument as well as the style.

8

On 2002-09-30 10:40, StevieJ wrote:

My point? If what interests you is developing a good style, I think questions of note lengths is the wrong way to go about it. Use your ears instead and let them tell your fingers what to do.

I could not possibly agree more. An academic exercise like you describe may help a person earn a PhD, but is not likely to help improve a person’s playing. Musicologists and musicians have different objectives.

But I am interest in learning about the tradition. The thing is, my ears tell me there is a lot of variation here, between different players and even by the same player on different tunes. I was simply interested in how this fits into the tradition – whether it’s simply a matter of taste and preference, or whether there is more to it (like regional differences in styles).

All the comments here have been very helpful. Thanks to you all.

–Jay

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Peter,
I wouldn’t really know - I’m just judging from my experience and I don’t think I’ve heard any other players from Mayo… people talk about east Clare and Donegal and Sliabh Lucra styles, but places like Mayo and Meath and, say, Cavan seem not to get noticed much. Is there any particular reason for this do you think?
Jo.

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Maybe because there isn’t an abundance of music there, a lot of music along one edge of the county is often taken in with the Sligo/Roscommon style. The other end probably more influencd by Connemara and I know little about the wilderness of the West, Brian Gallagher has been there for ages but I wouldn’t think of him as a regional player either, Ciaran would, I think, have learned most of his pipign in Dublin and he spends time with Robbie Hannan and that crowd so that made me put down the footnote about him being regional. Ohter pipers fro mthe area, Michael Kilbane from Achill and Eamonn Walsh are not very distinct in their style either.

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Everybody learns from everywhere. A friend of a relative teaches trad fiddle in Cork. She did Martin Hayes’ class in Miltown because his playing is so different to hers. I would say that her style is pretty obviously regional, but over the years she will have listened to and learned from players from many areas. It’s a question of where you draw the line really. Would someone who was born and brought up playing in Clare but then travelled and spent many years in other places (say Dublin, London, Australia, wherever) be considered a Clare musician because of the remnants left in his playing? Where would people like Kevin Burke fit in? I think it gets impossible to define, the more you think about it.

12

It would be interesting, academically, to load some of those old recordings into a digital editing program like PowerTools and look at the swing patterns and preferences of various players. Those early recordings were the beginning of a new era, but also the end of another. As soon as the first song was recorded, a new point of reference existed for players who followed, and the aural tradition of the past was forever altered by the existence of reproducible versions of the songs.
as with any tradition, the versions these guys recorded became the “accepted” version, and I’ll bet if you did the PowerTools experiment on a number of different versions of those songs as performed by modern players, you would see a curious uniformity in the “feel” or “swing” of the piece.

13

My .02 worth:

I believe that playing with a “swing” preceded the more mechanical even notes in European musical history and is a direct reflection of ancient folk styles of playing on instruments.

You will find some of this swing in the attempts of early musicians to resurrect “authentic” playing styles of Renaissance instrumental music. I have experienced the gradual adoption of that swing in doing Spanish viheula music as well as Italian lute music of the late Renaissance.

As a guitarist, we study lute technique to mimic authenticity and there is historical reference to the p-i (thumb-index) right hand fingering for melodies. If you play this way, you get reel swing because the thumb is so much stronger.

I think that in many ways, the accomplishments of Bach in adoption of equal temparament included even rhythmic weight in scale passages as a new thing..This all coincided with the Enlightenment and just a more science-based approach to life and the arts. And after this eveness of Baroque and Rococo music, the rise of rubato came during the Romantic era, indicating a need to deviate from what may have become mechanical scale work.

The possible exception to this is the military march, which may have been even always for effect…not sure about that one…

So in exploring Irtrad, I feel that the reel style is grounded in music history and human practice rather than something stylistically developed and acquired as an opposition to even scales.



[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-10-28 13:29 ]

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On 2002-10-28 13:19, The Weekenders wrote:

The possible exception to this is the military march, which may have been even always for effect…not sure about that one…


[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-10-28 13:29 ]

Or it could be cause it’s hard to march to a swung rhythm unless you’ve got one injured leg and are limping… :laughing:

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Errr… isn’t there a long history of marches in 6/8 (which is basically swung)? I’m having a hard time thinking of any names at the moment (stupid brain) but I know we played dozens of them in band…

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In the modern army, where people have boots that fit and (mostly) even sufaces to march on, jigs are far better than marches for marching to. Twenty-odd years of experience of the equivalent of the National Guard speaking here.


Edit: PS, there’s a five-part thread on the same topic going on on the Clips&Snips board under the title “Is it just me?”

An PluiméirCeolmhar

[ This Message was edited by: Roger O’Keeffe on 2002-10-31 11:36 ]

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Hey Roger:
I wasnt going to respond to deirdres joke with something serious but since you did:
it occurred to me that it was the Romans who beat out a cadence on a drum as they marched in battle I believe as well as on slave-galley boats or whatever you call them to establish the rowing beat.

So tribes in Europe were at least exposed or terrorized by the legions and their martial beat pretty early.

I also thot about how the bodhran sounds pretty martial if you exclude the melody instruments… guess you could get bloodthirsty for battle to that beat..

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Trouble with using a bodhran in battle is that troops with an ear for a good jig would probably all turn on their own drummer!

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Source of scorn, hostility and many many jokes:

Bodhran in Ireland= Banjo in America (may substitute accordian in some regions)