The little one and I have been working each day on her Sweetone. We haven’t progressed very far because she can’t seem to keep the holes covered when she holds the whistle. We started with no holes, then one, then two. Two is iffy but three has been impossible.
Today we were working on three again. If she doesn’t put her thumb on the bottom of the whistle, she can get all three fine. When she brings her thumb up to brace the whistle, it rolls her fingers around off the holes. I know people on here have children younger than her at 3-6 playing. I’m wondering if they have a modified grip or if there is a trick to making it work in their little hands.
Her finger spread between middle of the tip of her pointer straight to middle of the tip of her middle finger is 2.75". The holes are just larger than 1.75" apart middle to middle, so I think that should be more than enough.
It’s hard to visualize the issue but do you think the whistle is too large for her? If so, you may want to get a higher pitched whistle such an Eb, F, or G which will have smaller holes closer together. I’d recommed Generation whistles in that case.
I have a Gen high D so we can try her on it to see if it is better. I had a strict budget, though. I don’t want to take a chance on the unreliability of quality and tone on an untweaked and can’t afford another tweaked one right now.
The high F is about the same price as a Sweetone and I could trade for it possibly, so if she really can’t handle the Sweetone, that looks like the next best thing. With the F, I could play in F with her.
So many others said they had their 3-6 year olds playing a Sweetone, though, and with them being smaller than her, I’m still wondering how they do it.
Although hand size may be an issue, I doubt it from what you say. From experience, I would say that the first key thing is understanding. She probably doesn’t get why it matters to seal the holes, so work from first principles and think of ways to demonstrate to her - both doing it yourself and getting her to… look at/listen to what happens when you don’t seal - let her see you “missing” holes whilst listening and get her to show you how to do it right. Sit her on your lap and finger the whistle while she blows, then swap. (Not the lap sitting!) Maybe, if you think she’s ready for it, explain about longer and shorter tubes/strings making higher/lower pitched sounds, and how the holes in the tube are just ways of changing its length - plenty of scope for (low cost) fun home experiments with kitchen and stationery gear here. Obviously, if the hole isn’t closed properly and the holes aren’t shut in order, the tube doesn’t get longer properly! Make/get her to make nasty squeaks and hisses and duff notes then experiment how to sort them out into “nice” sounds. This will help with breath control too, though may not be good for your ears or the neighbour’s dog! After some fun with horrid noises, she will doubtless prefer to make nice ones, and get a sense of achievement from doing so, especially if she understands how she has achieved them.
The second key thing is almost certainly relaxation - lack of confidence about holding the whistle securely/dropping it is probably leading to tensions which cause the rolling you describe and the lack of freedom of movement of the fingers. A natural response to failing to seal a hole, especially for littlies, is to squeeze harder - which actually makes things worse, mostly. Try getting her (and show her that the whistle can be safe thus) to hold the whistle (without trying to play) just resting between the lips, on the two thumbs and balanced with the R/bottom little finger on the tube, away from any holes. Even use the L one too if necessary. (It might help temporarily to wind a small, thin rubber band around the tube just above each thumb position and the R4 position as little rests as well as locators, as long as they don’t obstruct the holes - small blobs of blutack might serve as well.) Only touch the whistle lightly at all contact points, no pressure. Poise the 6 playing fingers in the air above their holes and waggle them about freely and relaxedly. She/you shouldn’t drop the whistle. Try moving about like that. If she learns it is secure thus and can keep her fingers relaxed, she will get confident and will find she can move her fingers freely and can cover the holes, provided her hands are set in the right places, of course (thumbs under tube and between the postions of fingers 1 and 2 of each hand). Maybe explain/show too how being stiff makes it hard to move or to have good control of movement. Children (usually) like to understand how things work, including their own bodies!
Next you could, from that secure hold/no-holes covered position, get her to try just tapping each finger (just one at a time) in turn down onto its hole and bounce back up - without blowing. (This will be helpful when it comes to “taps” as ornaments later too.) Then do the same thing but working down the scale - still no blowing; no-fingers, tap/bounce L1; L1 on, tap/bounce L2, and so on, encouraging her to feel the hole with the pad of each finger. Then try doing it with gentle blowing. Also try to get L4 off the tube (if it was on) as soon as possible. R4 can stay put. The point of this is that you can’t really “throw” a finger at the tube and bounce it off if it is tense. It will also help to develop a sense of the locations of the holes, especially when you get her to start breathing gently through the whistle as she does the bounces, because she will hear the effect on the note of the tap on the hole - or not, if she misses - but in this context, it doesn’t mess up a tune she wants (/you want her) to play right, so if she misses a hole it doesn’t constitute frustration and tension provoking “failure” to the same extent.
Don’t overdo all this though - or boredom is likely to set in. I’m not suggesting you tackle all these ideas in one session! Getting to play actual tunes is the main source of interest. Do the “experiments”/demonstration bit, get her relaxed and confident about holding the whistle, then get on with a tune or two. Try some that work up from all fingers on as well as ones that start on B or A and add fingers - after all, although it demands all the holes be sealed properly, D is the most secure hold! Re-visit the postural/relaxation stuff regularly in the context of whatever tune you are working on. Make the exercises fun.
Katie, these are whistles we are talking bout and most of the whistles you can find in a music shop will be just fine to get started on. Generation have served both professional and complete beginners for decades, before high end and tweaked alternatives where available.
I can’t see the point in getting a tweaked whistle or a high end whistle for my kids before they learned to play. You should be able to tell if it is something wrong with a Gen whistle just by playing a tune or two, then return it and get another one.
Now to your question about learning.
You got some good teaching advice from “jamtheflute” but the major concern is to get them going so it is FUN to play.
I had a similar experience when my kids wanted to learn to play the whistle. Too many squeaks take away all the fun, so it your job to keep the enthusiasm by making small steps of progress and make things as easy as possible for them.
First thing is finding the holes and keeping them sealed. This is far more easy if you start them out on a whistle that fits their hand size, like an F.
Once they got the hang of it and know what to expect they will have no problem to move up to a D whistle.
Second is to get the breath control so they can keep the octave.
Progress slowly, start with the top three notes on the left hand only.
Once they gets the notes and can hold them, find a tune or two for the left hand only before you move on to the bottom hand notes.
Keep the teaching/lesson part to maximum 15 min at a time, and be clear about what you are going to practice each time before you start, and stick to that. Then let them practice by their selves when they feel like it.
A little trick is to make them a nice looking (or cool) whistle stand out of a CD ROM spindle and put it on their desk or in the window so the whistle is catches the eye and trigger the impulse to pick it up
Keep it FUN, make sure that she wants to learn to play the whistle more than you want her to.
Play and practice as much as you can yourself, invite others to play with you at your house. It is always good to get inspiration, and don’t be surprised if he/she picks up their whistle and wants to join in on twinkle, twinkle …
Thank you so much for the detailed advice! I was doing some of it, but I wouldn’t have even thought of others. I really appreciate it!
That part we had down. She took the teacher role very seriously.
Sit her on your lap and finger the whistle while she blows, then swap. (Not the lap sitting!)
That’s a great idea and it worked really well. Thanks!
Maybe, if you think she’s ready for it, explain about longer and shorter tubes/strings making higher/lower pitched sounds, and how the holes in the tube are just ways of changing its length - plenty of scope for (low cost) fun home experiments with kitchen and stationery gear here.
This was also great! We did an experiment and got out her tape measure and I took a fat pen apart to get the tube. She then figured out on her own that the longer the tube, the lower the note. We calculated how many times we could make it incrementally longer. We covered all the holes and she stuck her finger in the end to get it to come out of the windway down to all of the holes covered. Then we hypothesized what would happen by adding the pen tube to the end. It really seemed to help. Thanks!
A natural response to failing to seal a hole, especially for littlies, is to squeeze harder - which actually makes things worse, mostly.
She was doing exactly that. From her point of view, they were covered so she wasn’t understanding. After we figured out the tube length issue, she could check that holes were covered properly by putting her ear up to the one it should be coming out of. I would play with my fingers tight and not sealed and she could hear that it wasn’t coming out of the right hole by putting her ear up to it. Then she was able to notice what my problem was and tell me to seal them. I pushed tighter to do so and told her I thought pushing tighter might help. She said, “That’s what I thought when I was starting, too. But I learned that you don’t want to push harder, you just want to move your finger over to cover it. I’ll show you.”
I was really impressed!
(It might help temporarily to wind a small, thin rubber band around the tube just above each thumb position and the R4 position as little rests as well as locators, as long as they don’t obstruct the holes - small blobs of blutack might serve as well.)
Another great idea! We had the thumbs going to the right places, but they would move when the third finger came up. Having a marker is a wonderful reminder. She doesn’t seem worried about dropping because she’s chomping down hard on the beak with her teeth. I think this will help to get her to stop doing that as well.
Next you could, from that secure hold/no-holes covered position, get her to try just tapping each finger (just one at a time) in turn down onto its hole and bounce back up - without blowing. It will also help to develop a sense of the locations of the holes, especially when you get her to start breathing gently through the whistle as she does the bounces, because she will hear the effect on the note of the tap on the hole - or not, if she misses - but in this context, it doesn’t mess up a tune she wants (/you want her) to play right, so if she misses a hole it doesn’t constitute frustration and tension provoking “failure” to the same extent.
We’ve been working on this and she hits it approx. 1 out of 7 times. I’m trying to think of a way for her to better feel the hole’s placement to be able to learn it.
Getting to play actual tunes is the main source of interest.
She’s actually been quite opposed to my teaching her a tune. She doesn’t like doing things unless she can do it perfectly, so she won’t even try. I’ve played Mary Had a Little Lamb for her several times and she always runs or hides. So I was quite surprised when my husband said she had my old plastic play whistle from when I was in preschool (which I thought was long gone, but she found it apparently) and he said she was playing Mary Had a Little Lamb on it. I need to find some other super-easy songs to play around her to keep the boredom away so she has some more to work on.
Thank you for the advice as well! I really appreciate it!
I strongly believe that it is more important for a beginner to have a well made (not high end, but quality, tone, and reliability) instrument than it is for an experienced player. A beginner needs to know that if she plays it well, it will come out sounding nice. Scratchy or unreliable instruments produce poor sounds even when played well and a beginner will have no incentive to continue.
I’m not talking high-end here, but Generations in particular are known for being unreliable straight from the box. Being a beginner myself, I don’t feel confident in my own ability to know the difference, so I got myself a tweaked version to know someone who did know what he was doing had checked it while I got her a Sweetone because of their reliability. I thought they were good choices considering my budget was $50 total (which I surpassed by 95c with shipping). I don’t have the money to just try out many different ones and don’t know of a local shop selling them, so I did the best I could for the time being.
First thing is finding the holes and keeping them sealed. This is far more easy if you start them out on a whistle that fits their hand size, like an F.
Once they got the hang of it and know what to expect they will have no problem to move up to a D whistle.
A wonderful person volunteered another whistle, an Eb, so she can work on something smaller to gain confidence. I am so very appreciative and think it was a wonderful idea. Thanks SteamWalker for suggesting it!
Second is to get the breath control so they can keep the octave.
Progress slowly, start with the top three notes on the left hand only.
We haven’t even gotten there, but I’ve noticed in her playing around it is something she doesn’t have. She jumps far too easily into the higher octave. I’m trying to think of ways to explain it to her. The best I’ve come up with is to play a matching game. I play a note and she matches. I mix it up with different rhythms so it seems like we’re doing something new. It gives her time to play around with her breath and not worry about moving her fingers. If you have any other ideas, they’d also be appreciated.
Once they gets the notes and can hold them, find a tune or two for the left hand only before you move on to the bottom hand notes.
I was thinking that would be good but haven’t gone looking for any yet. Do you have any suggestions? I’ll look around for them. Thanks!
Keep the teaching/lesson part to > maximum 15 min > at a time, and be clear about what you are going to practice each time before you start, and stick to that. Then let them practice by their selves when they feel like it.
That is definitely our working model. 15 minutes, 1 topic, lesson’s up. I’ve learned in other areas that even if she’s enjoying it and wants to continue that it will only burn her out if I do, so I shoot for KISS (keep it short and sweet).
A little trick is to make them a nice looking (or cool) whistle stand out of a CD ROM spindle and put it on their desk or in the window so the whistle is catches the eye and trigger the impulse to pick it up >
That is such a cool idea! Thanks! We have the things sitting around and will definitely do so.
Keep it FUN, make sure that she wants to learn to play the whistle more than you want her to.
I am trying to find a balance there. The whistle was solely her request and interest and not pushed by me at all. Then when it came, she blew and got a squeak and decided she’d have nothing to do with it. I told her that music lessons are a non-negotiable in our house and that she had committed herself to the whistle for this year, so if she doesn’t want to continue next year it is OK but we’re going to follow through with the term. She’s definitely warmed up since then and has even come to me asking for her lesson, but the scale is still tipped to being coming from me instead of her. I’m working on it, though, by trying to include her and make it fun. The biggest thing with her is a sense of personal accomplishment, so I’m trying to give her that.
Play and practice as much as you can yourself, invite others to play with you at your house. It is always good to get inspiration, and don’t be surprised if he/she picks up their whistle and wants to join in on twinkle, twinkle … >
I am doing that! She just rolls her eyes at me. You’d think she’s a teenager. I would be very surprised if she joined in a group playing, but I am encouraged by my husband’s report of hearing her playing Mary Had a Little Lamb on her own. As long as she doesn’t get too discouraged and I make sure to present songs within her ability level, it should continue to improve. I think the whistle stand will also really help. i’m still excited about that one!
Best of luck!
/Marcus
Thank you so much, Marcus! I really appreciate you taking the time to share what’s worked for you. I think it will really help to make whistling a fun and enjoyable experience here, too.
Katie, so glad Marcus and I have helped! I think you are right, the “Mary H A L L” incident is great news and a good pointer. It certainly means her ear is fine! So now try some other nursery rhymes or similarly simple songs she knows and likes. Most nursery rhymes have pretty simple tune/harmonic structures, funnily enough! They are great for developing the ear. To hit your “her leading” target, maybe just try singing one when she comes in/happens to be around. (Check out first for something you can pick out easily on the whistle!) Sing together. Wait and see if she goes off to try it on her clandestine whistle! If not, next time you do whistles, lead off with it. Maybe just showing her the starting notes to avoid her getting frustrated if she can’t find the right place in the scale to begin will be a good move. One of the best ways of expanding familiar range on any instrument is to play tunes that take you there - force you to learn new bits.
If she doesn’t (yet) want you to teach her tunes, go with that. Help her with the basic practical, sing, play when/where she can hear you. Let her have free access to her whistle (but have ground rules about caring for it and for other people’s ears!). When she’s ready she will ask how to do something, for you to show her part of a tune she’s trying to find herself but is stuck on, or how something she has heard you playing goes.
Regarding squeaks/blowing too hard, etc. This partly comes down to tension factors again. Do be quite firm about stopping her biting the beak!The trick is to get her to breathe into the instrument, rather than blow forcefully, and without a big huff at the start because she has taken in a huge lungful which has to burst out! Try going from barely letting any air out into the whistle, making silly whispery little noises, up towards a clear note, rather than from a hard-pushed squawk downwards. If you invent some more experiments here, you should be able to explore how breath control achieves the different octaves (and further up the harmonic series if you want to push things). Seeing how long you/she can sustain a nice-toned clear note without blowing it sharp or flat might be another useful exercise
Going off at a bit of a tangent, try comparison with a tensioned string. It sounds to me as though your lass is a percipient observer, so with a bit of guidance… - Tie a piece of string between two solid objects about 3-4 feet/1metre apart; get it fairly tight. Then twang it gently. Look at it as well as listen. Then find the centre point and just lightly touch it just after twanging it - observe what happens - you get the 1st harmonic, an octave higher, and the two halves of the string vibrate half as widely but twice as fast… (If you have access to one, use a guitar or fiddle instead, but improvising might be more fun.) Of course, you can also look at changing the length of the string and changing its tension and/or thickness (though these last bear little comparison with woodwind acoustics).
In a whistle or flute, the harmonic is achieved by intensifying the airstream so it makes the air column in the tube vibrate twice as fast. (It also forms a “node” in the vibrating air column just like that at the point where you touch the string, but of course you can’t see that!) And so on for the other harmonics up the series if you want to find their string positions/make squeaky overblown noises. Doing blown tube harmonics with a long, narrow tube (like that used for making whistles - see below) or hose-pipe using a brass type “raspberry” embouchure, just like a natural trumpet or horn can also be fun, though it kills the lips!
BTW, if the (disguised, cross-curricular) science/experimental approach is paying off, having a go at making some whistles might be a good ploy - it can be very cheap! Check out Guido Gonzato’s website and have a go. If you have any acquaintances who are electricians or plumbers, you might even be able to get some free offcuts.
Hi Katie, you seem to have everything set up nicely so I’m sure she’ll grow into a whistle virtuoso in a year or so.
Once again very good advice from jamtheflute, lots of insightful things to consider.
Regarding the first tunes, I used some simple ones from a kids fiddle book we had, called “songs for small bows”. Very simple stuff, first tunes was just one or two notes and played with different rhythms, then some fun and simple 3-5 note tunes.
Here are some recorder classics for kids that you can use:
Katie - as so often on these fora, we are re-covering old ground to some extent. Here is another thread from a few months back on similar lines that, if you haven’t seen it, may have some useful bits in. (I knew I’d written some of my ideas out before!)
Re nursery rhymes - I don’t know to what extent the Stateside repertory parallels the British, but there are quite a few that quickly spring to mind -
Frere Jaques - start on G, goes up to 2nd octave E, needs Cnat (use oxx xox - most secure as well as usually best-in-tune) - no harm in teaching the cross fingering from early on, and is easier than all-fingers-off C# for a beginner; only difficulty may be the G - D drops in the last phrase. If she gets it, of course you can play it in canon. get Dad involved and play it as a round. Baa-baa Blacksheep - start on G, uses one octave up to 2nd 8tve G, with Cnat.
London’s Burning - start on bottom D, uses one 8ve up to 2nd D, with Cnat. Also a round.
Three Blind Mice - start on B, uses one octave, G up to 2nd 8tve G, with Cnat.
Hey Diddle Diddle - start on B, range goes down to G and only up to 2nd 8ve D, with Cnat.
Rock-a-bye Baby - start on G, range F# to 2nd 8ve D, with Cnat.
The Grand Old Duke of York - start on A, range up to 2nd 8ve A, with C#. OR start on low D, range up to 2nd 8ve D with Cnat.
The North Wind Doth Blow - start on A, range up to 2nd 8ve A, with C#. OR start on low D, range up to 2nd 8ve D with Cnat.
Jack and Jill - start on G, range up to 2nd 8ve D and down to G (or F# leading into the final cadence, but you can play a note above the final instead of the one below quite happily), with Cnat, OR start on D in either octave, with C#, OR start on A, with C# (which would need half-holed or cross fingered G# at the cadence from below, but B is fine instead): - a good one to use, then, to explore the range a bit with a tune already learnt in one key.
She took the teacher role very seriously.
