I’m wondering about the tuning of whistles with tuning slides. It seems that on a whistle with a tuning slide, there is a “sweet spot” where the whistle is more or less in tune with itself. Move away from the sweet spot, and the octaves go out. For instance, on a particular whistle I play, it’s spot-on in tune with itself when pushed all the way in. As I pull the slide out, the first octave goes flat, and the second octave goes sharp. It’s correctable with breath pressure for a while, but eventually it becomes impossible to keep it in the correct octave and in tune.
Now, do most makers put the “sweet spot” at the point where the whistle plays in tune with itself at A=440, or is it when the slide is pushed all the way in? I hope I’m making sense here…
I don’t think that I’m alone in this, but I tune my whistles to be a tad sharp when pushed all the way in. This way, if you’re playing with other instruments that are sharp, you have a little wiggle room.
To some degree, the spot where a whistle plays in A-440 pitch depends on how hard the player blows.
No Paul, you’re not alone. I tune my instruments to A-440 when the slide is out about 1/4". This gives a little “wiggle” room as you say. All the way in is about 35 to 40 cents sharp depending on how hard you blow. Of course any variance from the sweet spot does slightly affect the intonation which can be corrected (to a degree) with breath pressure.
I understand your question and being cursed with perfect pitch , I’ve found many tunable whistles to be slightly off with themselves through the octaves as you’ve experienced when not set at A440 concert pitch (slightly flat or slightly sharp). The exception is my Abell which is always in tune with itself whether it’s set 20 cents flat or 20 cents sharp which is one of the many reasons I play an Abell. It’s the most accurate high D I’ve played without the need to blow any notes into tune whether it’s set slightly sharp or flat. If you read Chris’ info on his web site, this is one of the main attributes he strives for…“it must be tunable in either direction from concert pitch without compromising intonation or tone quality”. And he’s succeeded.
But realistically, within the environments I play where everyone is good about being in tune, I rarely…if ever… need to mess with the tuning slides on any of my whistles once set.
I think a.mellifera was talking more about the octaves than the absolute pitch
@a.mellifera - very observant of you -
you don’t mention the maker of your whistle but any tuning slide has two intrinsic problems
(lets assume a D whistle) the effect of shorting the whistle by say 2mm changes your first octave A more than the first octave D - its a greater percentage of the A length than the D and so the tuning if it was perfect is no longer. Sorry I don’t have the time or energy to calculate the theoretical difference right now.
moving the slide changes the internals of the tube and effects the tuning of the octaves - see Terry McGee’s site and the Shakuhachi (spelling?) site mentioned here occasionally - if I get time and can find them I’ll get back with the links.
And yes I too make my whistles to play in tune with the slide pulled out - how would you tune sharper otherwise, and if it is not the temperature of the room that requires the movement it has been my experience that people usually play sharp not flat.
Thank you for your replies. I’m don’t think that I’m understanding, though. Is the sweet spot at which the octaves are in tune with each other, supposed to be at A=440, with the tuning slide pulled out a bit?
My problem with this particular whistle is that it is in tune with itself across octaves with the tuning slide pushed all the way in–which makes it more than 50 cents sharp across the board. At the compromise spot at which the middle d is in tune, the first octave becomes progressively flatter as I play down, and the second octave becomes progressively sharper as I play up. So to play in tune, the bell tone requires the most breath pressure, and the high b, c, d the least. It’s a counterintuitive way to play, and frankly annoying, because this is my most expensive whistle.
I’m not an experienced player, and I haven’t played many whistles, so I don’t know what to compare it to. Do some whistles require very very low breath pressure? I’d like to be able to play this whistle with other musicians, because it has a very pretty tone. Every time I try playing it with anybody, I give up, shove it back into my bag, and take out a gen or feadog.
Thank you–you posted while I was typing. And now I think that I can formulate the question I’ve been meaning to ask in an understandable way–is the placement of the toneholes calculated based on the length of the whistle when the slide is pulled out a bit to A=440 for the bell tone? Do I make sense yet?
Thank you for the links–I’ll peruse them when I have more time.
Yes, the holes are sized and placed to be in tune when the whistle is in tune. Of course, not everybody blows the same, so there should be some wiggle-room.
With a cylindrical-bore whistle, you’ll always have to adjust the way you blow to keep the octaves in tune. (Actually, some makers like Mike Burke put perturbations in the bore to bring the octaves into tune.) It can be easier or harder depending on the design, but to some extent, it’s up to the player to keep the whistle in tune.
Chris Norman once said to me, “Don’t blame the flute for your inability to play it in tune.” Not exactly the same as a whistle, but still pertinent.
And I agree, bring it up to the maker. I once got a Grinter whistle right after Michael had changed the design. Evidently, there was some mis-communication and the top of the body was 3 mm too long. It happens.
No, I haven’t contacted the maker–I figured that I just needed to learn how to play the thing correctly, and now it’s been a few years. I think this whistle is just one that’s hard to play in tune–when I’m playing it every day I get closer to how it should sound.
I’d be curious to know what whistle we’re discussing, which may shine some light on the issue. But I really think the maker needs to be made aware of any actual issues you’re experiencing. I’d surely want to know if I were the maker.
The tenon gap in a tunable whistle can make an enormous difference to the intonation.
There are several aproaches to how this is balanced to allow enough range for normal use.
The fine-tuning that you will need falls into 2 main categories:
Environmental factors - consider that all of temperature, altitude and humidity will cause the pitch to increase as they increase. None of these will affect intonation very much with the adjustments they require to obtain concert tuning.
the box, the fiddle and the guitarist. THese guys love playing sharp. AS you push your whistle to the sharp end you might get some very entertaining intonation features in your whistle ;
Some makers design their tunable whistle in a way that it is a non-tunable whistle cut in 2 with a tuning slide added. Very economical, however, the tenon gap will play gyp on intonation - better have it closed-up or be good at breath control to get pitch right.
Other makers design the tuning to be about right with some gap to go a bit sharp without too much fuss. Downside of this is that if you close it all the way up you will have a circus in you sense of pitch - clowns mostly.
The Main entertainer is the actual location that the maker decides to put his tenon-gap. 1/16th of an inch either side has a dramatically different affect on relative intonation.
I have tested hundreds of mass produced whistles for pitch - all of them are 20 to 50 cents sharp off-the shelf. It is said that sharp is less noticd than flat, and a box has one of the reed-pair tuned higher than the base - also, as the musicians become more enthused, they play with more physical energy - that makes blown, stringed and reeded instruments go sharp - this all tends to make sessions (and other performances) drift sharpwards
As always, the art of whistles is a balancing act in the labarynth of chaos!!!
, I’ve found many tunable whistles to be slightly off with themselves through the octaves as you’ve experienced when not set at A440 concert pitch (slightly flat or slightly sharp). The exception is my Abell which is always in tune with itself whether it’s set 20 cents flat or 20 cents sharp which is one of the many reasons I play an Abell. It’s the most accurate high D I’ve played without the need to blow any notes into tune whether it’s set slightly sharp or flat. If you read Chris’ info on his web site, this is one of the main attributes he strives for…“it must be tunable in either direction from concert pitch without compromising intonation or tone quality”. And he’s succeeded.