quena chin?

World/Folk Flutes & Winds
21

I would just add that the nature of the irritation might tell you something. If it’s red-to-purplish, burning especially upon contact, seems to be getting only worse with every contact, and is becoming blistery and weeping, odds in my book are for a contact allergy not unlike any other fluter’s allergy to Dalbergia or other woods from members of the legumes, which in fact would appear to be such a wood your quena in question is made of, gregwhistle.

Just something to keep in mind, from someone who knows a bit about that firsthand.

22

Well, experiment #3 is complete. Grr.

So, results so far.

(unintentional) Experiment #1 - playing a variety of pvc quenas and a wood quena

After a couple of months playing intermittently with no issues, suddenly an irritated red U on skin develops overnight afterward


-wait to heal-


Experiment #2 - play a few bars on a single PVC quenilla

irritated red U on skin develops overnight afterward


-wait to heal-


Experiment #3 - play a few bars on a single professionally made wood quena

irritated red U on skin develops overnight afterward


Getting hard to conclude anything other than that the physical act of playing quena is causing it? :frowning:


Meanwhile, no problems at all with whistles or traverse flute, of any material.

23

That doesn’t sound good at all. I’d be heartbroken if I couldn’t play my quenas. That’s strange that both the wooden and pvc is causing an irritation.
Ernest

24

I am :frowning: I was really enjoying playing quena.


It is strange. I don’t think I’m pressing especially hard, either - and I made a point of not doing so in experiment #3. Just enough to seal it so it will sound.

25

Time for hypo allergenic laquer?
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=2130008102
Should be availible in many places, and at less then 10 bucks it might be worth a try.

26

Ok, I’m going to say a few things that might seem out there. However, their is a very good basis for them although I won’t go into much detail as it would take a book. I am trained in various different healing modalities and I am trained to work with food and environmental allergies. For some years there have been more advanced treatments for both of them. The first one was someting called NAET. However since their have been many more effective treatments usually applied acupuncturists, chiropractors and nutritionists.

If you have a sensitivity to any of the materials including the paint, plastic, lacquer etc… you should be able to get an irritation no matter if you put it on your lips or touch it to another place on your body. So just for the heck of it, find a place you don’t mind getting a rash and put your flute on it. Your stomach, arms, where ever. However, likely a sensitivity might not be the problem. Do your hands get red or itchy? I can’t eliminate that possibility especially since I can’t test you online to the different toxins. However, likely your transverse flutes have lacquer. correct? And you use fipples made from plastic? Correct. And you said it happens whether or use plastic or wood? Correct. Not a strong case for a substance sensitivity if those same elements are on your other flutes.

The second option, that area and likely other area’s on your body are sensitive? Do you bruise easily? Are you fair skin or is your skin sensitive to other things? Do you have veins close to the surface? When you get bumped, slapped, sunlight etc? And I don’t remember this question being asked, are you playing the thing correctly? Are you using too much pressure? If you can play two octaves easily, you are probably relying on air and not pressure.

Now the other possibilities go down a rabbit hole that nobody has touched on and if I’d have to write a book to explain it here. Which I am not. So instead of going into it I’ll ask you a few questions and you can choose to answer or not here. Yup they are strange and might seem totally unrelated to your problem. But since you still have the problem, you have nothing to loose and you can keep the answers to yourself.


Do you play any other rim flutes besides quena?
How did you find out about the quena and was it an instant attraction?
Are there any cultures that you are interested in besides your own?
What is your ethnic background?
Do you have any other mysteries body pains, rashes, twitches that are unexplained?

If you want to PM me the answers that will be fine. I’m not diagnosing you, I’m just opening some other doors that you can investigate that you wouldn’t ordinarily be aware of.

Even without answering these questions, I’m going to ask you to do something even stranger. Go buy one of those small sticky reminder pads. And take one, and write quena on it. I want you to take that sticky and tape it on your chin for at least an hour when you are just sitting at the computer or watching tv. Observe that area before and then afterwards. You can repeat the experiment using the words “lacquer” “paint” “Plastic” “pressure” and notice what you notice. I told you it was strange.

Ok that’s enough for now but it gets you started looking at some different things. With something like this you have to put on your sherlock holmes hat and think about of the box.

27

Hmm … those are unusual questions :astonished: :smiley:

To the more conventional questions … yeah, I don’t see it being a contact allergy either. The very different materials causing the same result, and the fact that no other part of my body seems to be sensitive to them, would seem to point away from that.


The second option, that area and likely other area’s on your body are sensitive? Do you bruise easily? Are you fair skin or is your skin sensitive to other things? Do you have veins close to the surface? When you get bumped, slapped, sunlight etc?

I don’t bruise particularly easily or have unusual skin problems. I am very fair skinned, though given that, not as sensitive to the sun as you’d expect.


And I don’t remember this question being asked, are you playing the thing correctly? Are you using too much pressure? If you can play two octaves easily, you are probably relying on air and not pressure.

I can play two octaves pretty easily. I don’t think I’m using too much pressure - paid attention to it once this started happening, and it’s hard to see how I could use any less and still get sound.


Now to the weird ones :laughing: Though its hard to see why I would develop psychosomatic symptoms only after a couple of months …

Do you play any other rim flutes besides quena?

No - I’ve thought about trying some, but at the moment that doesn’t seem terribly cost effective, given the situation :slight_smile:


How did you find out about the quena and was it an instant attraction?

Don’t remember exactly. Yeah, it looked interesting, and at least theoretically, easy to make.

Tried it, and I love the sound and how responsive it is.


Are there any cultures that you are interested in besides your own?

Sure, always been interested in current and past cultures of the world.


What is your ethnic background?

Northern European.


Do you have any other mysteries body pains, rashes, twitches that are unexplained?

No.

28

Ya know … my dentist got enthusiastic about me doing daily at-home fluoride treatment right before this started.

While it isn’t causing a problem by itself, I wonder if it “sensitized” the skin in that area? The timing would be right.

As long as we’re considering the outliers when it comes to possibilities :smiley:

29

Ok, the question methodology isn’t going to work. I need you to be more specific and a public forum isn’t the place for it. I you have ever been to a Chinese doctor who does acupuncture, the questions can get pretty weird from the nature of your dreaming to your urinating habits and then most people pretty much ignore the questions because they are like what the hell does this have to do with my neck pain. usually more than most people can figure out without any kind of training in any type of alternative medicine. If you were in person, I could diagnose the problem in a couple of minutes. Resolution might take a couple of sessions depending on what we found.

So, if you are game, you can play my other little game with the slips of paper and putting the quena someplace touching another body part just to eliminate any sensitivity. The thing with hypo allergenic is there really is no such thing. Ok, there are toxic substances and non-toxic substances but people can be allergic to ANYTHING. Carrots, brocolli, your little sister.

If it all seems too ridiculous to even try, no problem. However people pay good money to ask them to do ridiculous things because when they leave they are either not depressed, no more allergic reactions or body pains. I can trigger somebodies allergy without the offending substance if you understand the mechanism of allergic reactions. Obviously, you don’t know me from Adam but I thought I’d do a good deed and throw out some of the “outliers” However, they aren’t really “outliers” simply because it’s simply these type of things are outside of the perview of the establishment but those who know, these type of things are very routine.

If you decide to play, report back. You need somebody who knows how to a form of muscle testing or kinesiology which you can generally find around in different healing professions. It’s all going to depend how badly you want to play quena.

30

And so long as we’re moving toward attempting actual diagnosis, let’s all of us keep it to personal consultations outside of the forums, please. Emails, PMs, or - preferably - visits to doctors in the 3D only. You know, C&F policy and all that. We have liability to consider.

Please remember that medical discussion about complaints is only forum-allowable in such a wise:

Q: My left (upper) hand hurts when I play flute.
A: Have you tried changing your grip? Cold compresses? Those have worked for me.
or
A: I suggest you see a specialist.


This type of iteration is generally not forum-allowable:

Q: My left (upper) hand hurts when I play flute.
A: I think you have [X-itis]. Tell me more.
or
A: You should go with vitamin therapy/positive thinking/Viagra/prayer/booze/ignoring it.

It’s not always easy to determine what’s best not posted, but the main rule of thumb is to keep complaints restricted to the playing-related, and recommendations to primarily the most basic and practical First Aid level, or instrument-related technical how-to advice, nothing more. Pointing to possibilities like contact allergy is admittedly in a grey area, as a number of people, particularly fluteplayers, have it. I do myself. But suggesting such a possibility is not quite the same as diagnosis, and ways to ameliorate that particular condition - if that’s what it actually is - are already well-known, basically simple, and don’t require actual medical treatment: stop playing, or use tape, or grow a beard, or get a different flute made of less allergenic qualities, because it’s also well known that contact allergy - IF that’s what it is - doesn’t abate in the long term any other way than by simply avoiding contact with aggravating materials. This of course is only an example, if a pertinent one. And remember that seeking or giving on-line public diagnosis and prescription here, beyond such aforementioned guidelines and simplicities, is completely forbidden. If you know or are yourself a specialist, contact the subject privately if you feel you must, but this not being a medical site, even that could be playing it a bit fast and loose for administrative liking. Nevertheless, the PM is a way around this, because then it’s behind the scenes, out of our hands, and only between the immediate parties concerned - for better or worse. Note that we don’t encourage it; we only suggest with some reservation. As for me personally, I would hope Chiffers even avoid such PMs here out of good community spirit, and instead go with email.

Thanks.

Moderator

31

Well Greg, this experiment may be meaningless but I bought me a pvc quenaco from the guy on this thread, https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/modern-ethnic-flutes/77390/1 , to see if my skin reacts to pvc. of course the quenacho I bought is from South Africa and not Peru or pvc from your local area.

This quenacho is strange in that it doesn’t have a thumbhole and basically plays like a really low whistle. here’s a pic of it next to my Tony Head quena for size comparison.
Ernest

32

The skin on my chin and lower lip used to get irritated from playing cane zampoñas. I couldn’t help but to play them though because I love them so much and I think my determined will eventually just made my body get used to it. Playing them so much also seemed to brake in the canes. The oils from my skin permanently discolored the cane and they became much smoother with time on the edge that touches my face.

33

That is one reason I never tried the zampona. Going across the canes like that looked like it would irritate unless the instrument was made where the mouthparts were rounded off.
Ernest

34

Well, some success :slight_smile:

I have some medical paper tape on hand, so I covered the contact portion of a PVC quena with a couple of layers. Been playing it for several days now, with no skin problems :slight_smile:

'course, I don’t want to mar the wooden one with that. But I’m better off than I was before :slight_smile:

35

Either you are very charitable to undertake this experiment, or my pain is your gain :wink:


Hmm, interesting that it doesn’t have a thumbhole. Being PVC, you could of course bore one, probably with a scissor if you like :slight_smile:


I have my eye on a wooden quenacho now, with a bone mouthpiece. Not sure if that would be any better in regard to the issue at hand, but I suppose it would be less susceptible to damage from my paper tape solution.

36

So far, no problems with my pvc quenacho. I put in about an hour of practice everyday since I got it and carry it around on weekends to practice everywhere I can. I shave daily with a straight blade so I can’t say that there are any negative sides to shaving and playing a quena.

Greg, if you ever think about unburdening yourself of your pvc quena give me a pm. I’d be glad to take it off your hands. Since it’s warm over here, I like pvc since it probably won’t be effected with my sweat.
Ernest

37

Glad to hear you aren’t having any problems :slight_smile:


Well, no, now that I have at least a provisional solution, I’d just as soon keep it :slight_smile: Thank you, though :smiley:

38

[quote=“O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago” One option to fix the pressure issue is to create a small backwards slope on the quena. Meaning, from the embouchure side it will slope done to the back, only by a few millimeters. If you think that may be the problem I could easily modify your quena this way.[/quote]

I’m a terrible quena player, but I’ve noticed that one of my two quenas has a bit more slope than the other, and the one with more slope feels like a better “fit”. It seems to me that there are differences in the shape of the jaw that could entail that minor adjustments be made to fit the instrument to the player. I don’t get any marks on my face, but I can definitely sense that I have to press the less sloped quena harder against my skin to get a decent sound out of it.

39

I hate to say that i am developing this “quena chin”. I have been playing only my wooden and bamboo quenas and blame the problem on sweating. I have this neat red ring on my chin. I am now taking care to only play indoors and in air condiitioned rooms. I wiped down the emboucher of my quenas real good with mineral oil.
I figured that the indians in S. America play their instruments in the mountains where the temps are always cool or cold and may not experience chin irriitation. If I have to practice in warm places, I will stick to tin whistles and bansuris and play quenas in cool places.
Ernest

40

Sorry to hear you have encountered this problem too!

Well, I now have a quenacho and a quena, both with a bone mouthpiece. And I don’t (yet, anyway) have this problem with either of them! So I do think it must have been a reaction to the materials.