Presentation and Bulgarian Gaida Sale

Hi Friends!!!

My Name is Luis. I come from Spain and I play several bagpipes of the world, like Galician Bagpipes and Flemish Pipes. I read the forum very often and now I have decided it´s time for register and talk with you about bagpipes. For me will be a bif pleasure talk with interesting people like Sean Folsom (I´m amazed with the collection that he owns!!!) or the polifacetic bagpiper Mister CHasR.

Also I want to say that I´m selling my Bulgarian Djura Gaida in D, made by Petko Stephanov. It´s a beautifull instrument with tin inlays rings, and plays very well. I´m selling it for 200 euros. If any one is interested can write me to: notelodigo62@hotmail.com

I can send photos and sound samples.

I hope I can start very soon with the bagpipe-discussion labor. Sorry for my bad english, friends :wink:

Bets regards!

Luife

Welcome to this board, Luife. Do you have pictures of your pipes, or even a link to pictures of similar pipes somewhere?

Of Course my dear friend!! I have pictures of all my bagpipes, but do yo want pictures of my bulgarian gaida on sale? or do you want pictures of my personal bagpipes, like the Galician Models? In any case, I can send you all photos do you want :slight_smile:

It would be nice if you posted photos of your personal pipes on the “pictures of your pipes” sticky on this forum.
We all want to see them!
I put photos of my gaita, my gaida, and various other things.

Hello Luife :slight_smile:
What’s polifacetic mean?

Pleasure to meet you, & I cant wait to see /hear your pipes + talent here also. Welcome. :party:

My Dear Friends:

I will submit here my Bulgarian Gaida pics, and the rest of the collection will be available in the “Picture of your Pipes” Section. Thanks for all for this sweet welcome!

For pancelticpiper: My Friend, you have an important moral duty: YOU MUST RECORD A SOUND SAMPLE OF YOUR DOUBLE-CHANTER NORTHUMBRIAN SMALLPIPES!!! I NEED TO LISTEN IT!! :wink:

For CHasR: I have translate the spanish word “Polifacético” (I thought that the equivalent in english was “Polifacetic”) and the meaning was VERSATILE. You are like me, My Friend: there are a lot of bagpipes in the world, and we can resist the temptation of touching more than one variety :wink:)

Well, here are the pictures of the Bulgarian Gaida on Sale for 200 euros:

Gaida by Petko Stephanov 1

Gaida by Petko Stephanov 3

Gaida by Petko Stephanov 2

AHA! Gracias- I understand.

Luife, may I ask you about Gaita?

Iv e been told the Gaita plays (or has played in the past) an important public role in Religious Processionals, Civic parades, etc. Is this true?

AND

Ive also been told that the Gaita’s history of being played in large groups, with drums, is older than in the Scottish tradition..(gasp~!) True? or no?

My Dear Friend CHasR:

The gaita plays in fact an important role in some places of Spain like Galicia or Asturias. This instrument is considered the “spirit” of the region, the “national instrument”. In Galicia you can find a lot of religious processions or catholic events with the sound of a Gaita. In Asturias there are very rich repertory of "asturian bagpipe religious celebrations (“Misa”, in spanish, “¿Mass?” in english). If you listen this songs you will find a BEAUTIFULL “Kyrie Eleison” played by gaita with a woman singing. I can send some photos and songs of this if you want, just send me your mail.

About the history of bagpipe with large groups: Gaita in Spain is an instrument with a brief history about the temperated scale. Old instruments were very personal elements, with the personal tunning of the bagpiper and of course with a non-temperated scale. For this reason, you can imagine that in the past was difficul for play two gaitas together. The union of the Gaita with other instruments (another gaita also) is connected with the progress of the instrument´s tunning. So you can see this progression:

1.- Antique Formation… First: Solo Piper with a loud drum. Loud bagpipe (the volume maybe was the same as two modern bagpipes toghether) and Loud and Big Drums.

2.- First mix with other instruments: Gaita + Clarinet + drum or metal drum percussion

3.- Gaita + Clarinet + drum or metal drum percussion + Bass-drum

4.- Gaita + Gaita + drum + Bass drum (this formation is called “Cuarteto” like the previous, butt the configuration of two Gaitas was formed by the “Gaiteiros of Soutelo”, the most famous Cuartet of XX siecle)

4.- Modern Formation: Gaita + Gaita + Clarinet/ Saxophon + little drums (the size of the wood and goat skin drum was reducing with the time) + Bass drum.

In a zone of Galicia called “ULLA” survived another type of formation:

5.- Gaita + Requinta + metalic drumm + Bass Drum.

A Requinta is a very curious transversal flute very similar to the Baroque Transversal Flute, with One key and in F or F # Pitch (also in G sometimes). The Requinta plays in the higher scale, because Gaitas are to loud and the flute needs good volume. Is very curious listen the combination of the continue sound of a gaita with the constan stop sound of a Requinta.

The first Galician Bagpipe Bands with 5 pipers or more was started in 1930 or 1940 I think, with a militar origin (you can see soldier regiments playing Galician Gaitas in the past).

I hope you are happy with my answer. SORRY because I´m better playing bagpipes than speacking english :wink:)

One question: Your Musette Bechonnet, has real-ivory rings?

Luife

thats a good answer: I was mis-informed about the ‘Gaita-band’ idea.

About 60% of the decoration on my Bechonnet is real ivory. It was made before 1978.

I´m curious about your “imitation-gaita gallega”, My Friend: I have seen Pakistani Scottish Pipes, but never an imitation-gaita. Maybe you can send me some photos to my personal address and we can comment their charasteristics :slight_smile:

Luife

It’d be an insult, really: to compare it to a real Gaita;

the thing was made in Thailand and marketed as a ‘Biniou Koz’:
Of course it was in the wrong octave, with 2 drones,
So I made the best of it:
after a LOT of chanter carving,
inside and out,
serious mutilating of arundo donax, brass, copper and string,
scrapping one drone altogether,
and 25 tries for a decent drone reed,
It finally sounded like a bagpipe!
So I bought a fringe and the rest is history.

After next monday I’ll find a jpg for all to cringe over!

About the gaita, I find it interesting to see what seems to me to be a creeping Scottish influence.

First you have the creation of large gaita bands, with a Scottish-style drum section.

Then the instrument itself becomes modified:
1)The key drops from the traditional C to the B flat of the Scottish pipes.
2)The ronqueta gets moved from its traditional position on the side, to up on the shoulder alongside the ronco. I’ve even seen pipes with a pair of ronquetas, in exact mimickry of the GHB.
3)The blowpipe becomes elongated.
This all results in the transformation of the traditional gaita to the new “gaita de banda” or “gaita marcial”.

I’m waiting for one of the Spanish bands to create some sort of “Spanish kilt” or something.

You know, we, here, in the anglo-saxon world tend to have the impression that the anglo-saxon world rules OK. Well, it does. In the anglo-saxon world. However, tere is a large world out there that isn’t anglo-saxon. Since I happen to occasionally visit it, I tend to get aware that over there , to take an instance, the Spanish (be it Galician or Aragonese) bagpipes have at least as much exposure, if not more than the Scottish. And being more , how should I put it, in touch with the rest of European musical trends, probably more appealing to your average European listener who is not speaking English. ( a dichtonomy right there, isn’t it? I mean - Scottish, English, get it?) So to get to the point, what about a Scottish torreador? In a kilt, perhaps?

My Friend Pancelticpiper:

I´m agree with your comments about the Gaita Transformation into a “Pseudo-scottish Gaita for Bands”. But I´m not agree only in one point:

“1)The key drops from the traditional C to the B flat of the Scottish pipes.”

Well, we can say that C key (GAITA REDONDA) is the most common in the Galician Bagpipe World TODAY. But in the past, C key is only a key between others.

B flat or B natural keys were very common in Galician Gaita, also A key (these Gaitas were called “GAITA TUMBAL”) . Also high keys like D or Eb (these Gaitas were called “GAITA GRILEIRA”). There are not fixed and absolut concepts: They change in agreement to the geographical zone. For example, in a zone where the most common key was D, these Gaitas were called “Gaitas Redondas”, and C Gaitas were called “Gaitas Tumbales”. In a zone were the most common key was B flat o B, these gaitas were called “Gaitas Redondas” and C gaitas were called “Gaitas grileiras”.
You can see there are Relative Clasifications.

But in fact, the name “Gaita Tumbal” defines a Low pitch bagpipe, the name “Gaita Redonda” defines an intermediate pitch bagpipe, and the name “Gaita Grileira” defines an high pitch bagpipe.

Also is interesting to know that in the past, there wasn´t an only type of Galician Gaita. In the past you can find differents types of Gaitas in the differents regions of Galicia. For Example:

Pontevedra: You will find B flat and B natural bagpipes with a bass drone and a double-reed drone playing the fifth with loud volume (it´s called “Ronquillo”, “Chillon” or “Pieiro”). The chanters have big dimensions and closed-fingering. Quite similar to Scottish chanters.

Arzúa and Melide: You will find D and E flat bagpipes with three drones: a bass drone, a tenor drone and a double-reed drone playing the fifth (Ronquillo). Tenor drone and Ronquillo drone are fitted in a common stock with a " V " form, called “Galleto”.

Baixo Miño: You will find sweet voiced bagpipes in B or C pitch, with a bass drone and tenor drone fitted in a common stock. It´s common to find “bellows-blow” bagpipes here, so the bagpipers can sing and play more easily.

A Fonsagrada: C or D bagpipes with Open or Half-closed fingering, only one drone. The interpretative style uses second-octave notes like in the Asturian Tradition.

A Limia: C or D bagpipes with Open fingering with only one drone. Very particular style of making cuts with the three fingers of the left hands.

You can see that we can´t find a “Traditional Model”, only we can find “Traditional Models”.

It´s very curious that the “Pseudo-Scottish Gaita for Bands” is not a complete modern invent. You can find some examples in the past of bagpipers who had an instrument with all drones in the “scottish style”. But there aren´t a representative fact, only anecdotal cases.

About the “spanish kilt”, there are some Galician Pipe Bands that are using it :frowning:

Well, We are waiting for the sound sample of the Northumbrian Double Chanter Bagpipe :wink:

Luife

this is very informative Luife :thumbsup:

Thanks so much Luife!

I’m just an American who is trying to understand piping in Spain.
I actually work with a Spanish guy who plays gaita and is a member of the local (Los Angeles) chapter of Xunta de Galicia.
He’s the one who encouraged me to get a gaita. He taught me quite a few tunes.
But, I realise that he is not a very good player, and his technique and knowlege are very limited. For example, he doesn’t know how to do any of the chromatic “fork” fingerings on the gaita.

It makes sense that traditionally the gaita would exist in many keys and fingering systems, region by region.

Another example of the “Scotification” of the gaita that I noticed was in a Galician gatia instructional book my friend loaned me.
This book had gone through at least two publications.
If you look closely at the fingering chart, you can see that the book originally gave fingerings using the ring finger as the resting finger, thus:
x xxx ooxo
x xxo ooxo
x xoo ooxo etc
but at some point the book had been modified, and in the new edition it had changed these fingerings to:
x xxx ooox
x xxo ooox
x xoo ooox
in other words, using the little finger as the resting finger, as on the Scottish pipes.
It also had an entire section of Scottish ornaments, added at the end of the section which gave the traditional Galician ornaments.

But about the Scottish influence as to the adoption of B flat for the “gaita de banda”, I don’t think it’s a mere coincidence that out of all the keys that gaitas were made in, that they decided to go with B flat for the marching band gaita.

I myself prefer the traditional gaita bands (with around four gaitas) and the traditional Spanish drums.

Now, perhaps you could clarify something that I’ve been wondering about. My understanding that the Gaita Gallega usually has a sharp upper 7th:
x ooo ooxo
and gets the flat upper 7th with a crossfingering:
x oxo ooxo
but that the Asturias gaita has a flat upper 7th:
x ooo xxxo (?)
and uses something like this for the sharp upper 7th:
o xxo xxxo (?)

I was watching an Asturias piper play, and that’s what I remember seeing. Also it seemed that the Asturian chanter used closed fingerings like:
x xxx xoxo (the sharp 3rd, but it would be the flat 3rd on the Gaita Gallega)
x xxx oxxo (fourth)
x xxo xxxo (fifth)

Welcome to the C&F Luife/Luis !
This is Sean Folsom, who you would “like to talk to” !
You mentioned my name at the beginning of this thread,
so I just want to say, “Thank You”! for your very interesting
writing on “La Historia de Las Gaitas” !
Especially, the part about the Closed(Cerrado) fingering being
THE older method of fingering, on the Gaita Galega.
Are there any examples of Vielhos Punteiros Galegos,
that have the small holes that are of the type found on the
upper hand finger holes of Asturian Gaitas ?
Or, were the finger holes larger on the Old Gaitas, than the holes on modern Chanters,
even those with Open (Abierto) Fingering ?
Perhaps there are examples, of old Galician Chanters in
La Museo da Gaitas in Xixon ?

Partially off this subject, we have Alexandre Cardarso-Suarez
of A Coruna, visiting California for a week (or more),
every summer.
This visit, is through the efforts of Kevin Carr and many other
Pipers, who are interested in learning the Gaita Galega.
The main Venue is the “Lark In The Morning” Camp, in Mendocino,
California, and more information,
about that Summer Camp, is available… “on the web”.
In 2005, I had my first (and only) meeting with Alexandre,
and I complimented him on NOT using (or adopting)
Scottish Ornaments in his playing, and keeping to the style of
Anton and Emilio Corral (R.I.P. Gaiteros Famosos, A Coruna).

I saw both of Alexandre’s Closed, and Open Chanters, and I didn’t
notice much difference in the size of the holes, on either of
the Chanters. Is there a difference in the size of the Reeds
between these two types of Chanters ?
I also have noticed a change in the sound of the Gaita Chanters,
made in the last Ten years (or so).
The sound now is softer, and not as “Robust” as the old sound of the
Gaitas, that I am familiar with.
The New Chanters now over-blow to 3 notes over the Octave,
(on a C Gaita, these notes would be a high D, E, and F)
instead of the One Note (D, or Re alto) over the
Octave, that was common with Chanters made in the 1970s.
What has been done to the interior Bore of the modern Gaita,
to make these 2 more notes (E&F) possible ?
I assume (perhaps wrongly), that there is a lot of pressure
to “keep up” with the larger compass of the Asturian and French Pipes ?
I have been aware of the reworking of the Bores on French Pipes
by Bernard Blanc and other French Makers, starting in the 1970s.
How long has this process been happening in Galicia ?
I hope I haven’t asked to many questions for you, in English !
My Spanish isn’t very good either, so take your time on this !
(Entonces…Mi Nina hablar perfectamente, en contraste de Mi)
Regards ! Sean Folsom

¡Amigo Folsom, Alias “Xuan el Gaiteiro”, “Xoan o Ghaiteiro”, “Xuanucu el Gaiteru”, etc…!

I´m pleased for talk with you. You was a model for me since I have start in this world.

I´m remember when I was 17 years old. I has bought my first Gaita in ebony, and I was very happy. I remember
to explore Internet and see the Oliver´s web site with your bagpipe-collection. I was saying then: “OOHHH, HOW MANY
BAGPIPES, AND HE PLAYS THEM ALL, I WANNA BE LIKE THIS MAN!!” :wink:))


Now life allow us talk in the distance about bagpipes :slight_smile: I will answer your question, please write me if you can´t understand my Horrible English :frowning:


"Are there any examples of Vielhos Punteiros Galegos,
that have the small holes that are of the type found on the
upper hand finger holes of Asturian Gaitas ?
Or, were the finger holes larger on the Old Gaitas, than the holes on modern Chanters,
even those with Open (Abierto) Fingering ? "

I can´t answer this question with 100 % of precision, but I must say Asturian and Galician Chanters were quite similar: I have seen a lot of Galician Old Chanters and I can´t see the same small finger holes of the upper hand like the
Asturian Gaita, but I can see a constant in all Galician chanters: The holes are increasing their size from up to down.
The upper holes are small, and the size is increasing in the bottom holes. You can think this is the natural thing for get the correct sound,
but I must say it be considered like an aestetic thing: a Galician Carpenter who doesn´t know physic rules only can see a chanter with the upper small holes and the increasing size progress.
I have attached old galician chanter photos, so you can see this.

Photobucket

Also, the holes of the old gaitas were bigger than modern ones, like the inside diameter diameter. Modern bagpipes area funny toy in comparison
of old ones. Modern chanters have little holes, it helps in the chromatic notes, like the reduced inside diameter.


"I saw both of Alexanre’s Closed, and Open Chanters, and I didn’t
notice much difference in the size of the holes, on either of
the Chanters. Is there a difference in the size of the Reeds
between these two types of Chanters ? "

I will very happy if I can go to America for play once in mi life, but I have two problems: language (I´m very bad listening english directly) and airplaes (I´m not afraid for a normal
airplane, but you spend a lot of time in the air for go to America!). Anyway, I´m very interested to know the American Bagpipe society :wink:

Photobucket

Well, about the question: today we haven´t good chanters with closed fingering in Galicia. Why? For get a good tunning in a closed fingering chanter, you need
a considerable inside diameter. But when you order a closes fingering chanter, a contemporary maker uses the same measurements of a moder one with open fingering, and
only modify some holes and their diameter. The consecuence is a lot of problems for get a correct tunning in G,A and B notes (I always use adhesive
tape in these notes in my chanters). Old chanters plays well in closed fingerig because they have a correct inside diameter: you can´t play chromatic notes, you
can´t play second octave notes, but you can play a powerfull first octave with a beautifull tunning.
and without problems
But you know, my friend: all is submitted to the desire of the majority. And the majority players today, want to play with chromatic notes,
with second octave, with goretex bags, with ultra-mega-super synthetic drone reeds, with electronic tunners with magnetic sensors and fax/moddem and microwave, etc.
A lot of people see in the Gaita a thing for transform and they want to get a “Bohem flute with bag”. I prefer preserve the old sounds.

Closed fingering chanters and Open fingering chanters uses the same reeds, no difference. Old reeds were so different, sometimes smaller than the modern ones, sometimes
with a curious quadrangular form. Another curious thing: you can play open and closed fingering with an old chanter, but you will listen more harmonics with closed fingering (in modern chanters you will find the opposite)

Photobucket

“The sound now is softer, and not as “Robust” as the old sound of the
Gaitas, that I am familiar with.”



Believe me, my friend: if you play a chanter from XIX century, you will consider a 1970 chanter like a funny toy. The question of the transformation of the size
and diameter in Galician Chanter and drones is very interesting, and my conclusion is always the same: I must pay more for get “reconstruction” of
old chanters, because modern ones don´t be the thing I´m looking for. If I want a sweet voiced bagpipe and chromatic notes, I will order a
Northumbrian Smallpipes, but is a error try to transform the Galician Gaita: you can lost a lot of things in the way.

“How long has this process been happening in Galicia ?”

I think this process start when bagpipe plays with a clarinet together. Clarinet is a modern instrument with chromatic posibilities, and bagpipers want
to play like a clarinetist. Open Fingering was adopted, like the desire of use the second octave and the use of keys in chanters. These things imply an abusive, but gradual transformation of the rural instrument into a refined instrument. You can find
fully keyed Galician Chanters made in Cuba and Buenos Aires, very populars for play in Charangas.

I can see your Galician Bagpipe and I need to say this: you must try with a really good bagpipe with CLOSED FINGERGING (you can understand me,
I´m sure you have the same opinion: closed fingering is the proper technology for play a bagpipe in any part of the world, is the “natural recurse”
for play a continue-sound instrument) . Please try a good model from Anton Corral (he is still live, he is not dead! he makes my Bb bagpipe the past Christmas time)
or an old chanter reproduction of Anton Varela. You will be very very very happy if you could try my “1800” reproduction chanter with loud volume. I think
is the best chanter I have got. You can see the original chanter in this photo:

44

I can see your concert for kids with a lot of bagpipes and instruments. I´m very interested to see more of these things, I enjoy when I see you. Are you interested to
change bagpipe material, My friend? I can see a lot of interesting stuff for you :wink:

Best regards!

Luife

Thanks so much! You have answered so many things which I have been puzzled about.

So very interesting that the Galician gaita should undergo the very same changes- the narrowing of bore and tone holes in order to gain chromatic ability- that all the Renaissance woodwinds went through (by the Hotteterre clan etc) which transformed them into the Baroque flute, oboe, etc. Except that the Galician gaita process seems to have happened a number of centuries later.

Also very interesting to see the upper flat 7th and drones in a common stock existing in Spain, things I think of as being “British” or “Scottish”.

Thanks again! Ricardo David Patricio Cocinero

Thanks for your words Pancelticpiper! I´m happy you can understand my horrible english for know more things about Galician Gaita.

Who is the maker of your Gaita?

Are you interested in he closed-fingering Galician Chanters? :wink:

Luife