I am wondering what experienced Uilleann pipers believe a practise set should offer. Please bear in mind, I am referring to a set that would cost less than $500 USD, and be made primarily for new persons who want to start on the pipes but aren’t sure if they want a serious half or full set. I’m not referrring to a backup set for a serious or advanced player.
So, those parameters in mind, what features would Uilleann pipers like to see in practise sets?
Slainte,
Cliff
I would imagine that the primary criteria are that the set not be out of tune with itself, a problem which seems to plague many of the so-called Pakistani sets.
By the way, welcome to the forum.
Hi Cliff,
I’ve always said that the real instrument is the Reed!..the pipes are there just to make the reed sound good!!!
So, to answer your question as best I can:
A good reliable cane reed. No plastic wanna-be reeds. This is non-negotiable.
An air tight bag and bellows system. For a cheap set I don’t think leather is mandatory. Synthetic “plumbing” should suffice.
A chanter that is reasonably in tune.
Looks shouldn’t really matter. (The success of the basic “penny chanters” have proven that playablility matters to people more than appearance)
That being said David Daye’s penny chanters have already met all of these criterea. If you are interested in offering something that people can actually play for a reasonable price, then perhaps you could go in that direction.
I remember when Joe Kennedy was starting out he had an idea of producing a very basic practise set with no blocks, keys or even ferrules. Just a basic stick that would get someone going. I don’t think this turned out to be a good business for him and now of course he makes premium sets.
This problem has come up several times between shops who would like to stock UPs regularly and makers of such sets. Retailers want a steady, reliable source of quality goods. Those who make quality sets do not do so in the quantities or to the timeliness that a retailer requires. Enter the Pakistani suppliers who have quantity, timeliness, but no quality. Its an unhappy trade-off.
It takes time to produce even the simplest of practise sets if you want any decent degree of quality, and makers cannot/do not want to be held to the restrictions of a regular demand/supply market. They do not want to only make practise sets, and once they get going on other projects they have no desire to drop everything when a retailer knocks on their door demanding another set or sets immediately.
The market for UPs is still too small to justify makers to set up assembly lines that could produce sets of sufficient quality and in the timely fashion that a retailer would like. I’m afraid that for the time being you may have to treat each set you get for resale like an artisan’s product, i.e. a one-of. That is the way makers are producing them.
That being said, you can always contact the various makers of budget practise sets to see what sort of arrangement they would be willing to enter into. Some names that have been mentioned are David Daye, Patrick Sky, and Patrick Murray.
djm
I took a look at your website… Looks like all the stuff you carry is quality stuff… I did notice their is no picture of your uilleann pipe sets… This would probably deter someone from buying if they dont know what it even looks like ( just a thought), and mabye a sound byte or two would also help someone make up their mind… If you can hear it and it sounds good that could make all the difference in a sale… Also I did’nt see a place to order replacement cane reeds…
Hope this feedback helps, Cheers
Song of the Sea seems to have some sort of re-sale arrangement with a couple quality makers. Perhaps you could look into a similar situation.
Have you checked out the FAQ FAQ FAQ?
That should offer you some guidance.
I would think you would need to up your $500 USD to around $1,000 or so if you decide upon a quality, welll known maker.
Otherwise, check out Patrick Sky’s and David Daye’s budget offerings (not meaning that they are not well known). You can even build your own penny chanter using David Daye’s plans with some simple tools and super glue, etc.
I would order a couple of reeds from David if I built my own penny chanter from scratch, though, as those are the “Piper’s Despair”.
I want to thank everyone for taking the time to offer advice. I am sorry I am so late getting back to this thread, my darn computer has been downloading this 2 gig patch and since there is only dialup Internet on this side of Cape Breton, it’s killing us for bandwidth. There is still one day to go till it’s done.
The problem for me is I love Celtic music. I play harp, fiddle and whistle, and I can talk about them for days. But I’m a pipe novice. I try to stay on top of what’s good and learn about the instruments, but I know I’ll never be any UP player. (My wife plays Irish flute, BTW. I just like to brag about that, because I really like to listen to her.) So lurking on the forum helps me a lot to understand the uilleann pipes.
It sounds like the biggest concern is the reeds. I think our current UP practice set supplier puts out a good product for $390. I mean, we really do just want to keep this as an introductory set that offers reliable, in-tune performance. The bag is leather, the chanter is polypenco but in tune. The bellows seems decently made of wood paddles and leather (I think it’s leather) but maybe I should raise the price a little so I can distribute the pipes standard with the good cane reeds. Till now we have offered them with the plastic reeds and offered cane reeds as a step up option. Do you guys think a new person to piping would mind an extra $50-$100 for cane reeds? Should I go with putting the cane reeds in standard?
If anyone wants, I will let a set of them go at cost if you will provide feedback on them so that I can determine their worth of Uilleann pipers. I know that Highland pipers have been happy with our practice sets, but UP pipers are either pickier or have different wants in mind.
Texas, thanks for the feedback about the photo. Our supplier doesn’t have a stock photo and I have failed to get a good photo of the things to date. It’s all the dark colours: black chanter, leather bag, dark bellows, all on black velvet. I will have to work out a better photographic arrangement for this item, it’s rather like shooting books. If you’ve ever tried to take a good picture of a hardcover book for a sales listing, you know what I mean. But, yes, unlike many eBay stores we are really, really, REALLY committed to quality and doing our darnedest to keep it high. I can do that with the instruments I know and play, but rely on learning from you guys about the uilleann pipes.
Someone also mentioned those Pakistani pipe distributors being reliable but poor quality. I guess it’s true. I don’t know. We don’t do business with them. But I can tell you this, one of their representatives actually called us last winter to tell us their products were the most popular on eBay and if we didn’t carry them we were as good as out of business. Then just last week a store selling them emailed us to tell us if we didn’t raise our prices, it would start a price war. I’m still floored. I don’t care, we aren’t raising our prices. If someone is going to buy Pakistani pipes, they shouldn’t be shopping with us anyway, but I was shocked, to say the least.
Well, best to all.
Slainte,
Cliff
Celts-Cauldron. Have you read the commercial posting policy?
Jessica, I am not trying to sell a set of pipes here. I am asking for the help of experienced uilleann pipers to help me understand what they consider quality in a UP practise set. I am doing so because I am not a pipe player, but I do want to be sure we are only carrying quality pipes, even if they are only practise pipes. I’m certain the moderators would freeze of kill this thread if they thought I was advertizing.
Slainte,
Cliff
Cliff,
I don’t think anything in this thread contravenes the policy. Your interests seem to be in finding out what pipers want so that you can better serve their needs.
I think you nailed it when you said that the reed is a big concern. Probably of equal concern is the chanter. Most people prefer wooden chanters, preferably exotic hardwoods. However, there are a few successful synthetic chanters available (Daye, Rogge, Murray, etc). The bag and bellows, for a practice set at least, need only be airtight, nothing fancy. Although the bellows need to be big enough to provide sufficient air to fill the bag with 3 or 4 pumps maximum.
Incidently, I’d be very interested to know what online shop threatened a price war. Any chance you’d scan and post a copy of that letter?
I don’t believe I mentioned anything about you selling pipes. Since you are in the business of selling instruments I though perhaps you would benefit from reading the policy.
But now that you mention it.
If anyone wants, I will let a set of them go at cost if you will provide feedback on them so that I can determine their worth of Uilleann pipers.
Some people might read this and think it is an offer to sell a product.
But I can tell you this, one of their representatives actually called us last winter to tell us their products were the most popular on eBay and if we didn’t carry them we were as good as out of business. Then just last week a store selling them emailed us to tell us if we didn’t raise our prices, it would start a price war. I’m still floored. I don’t care, we aren’t raising our prices. If someone is going to buy Pakistani pipes, they shouldn’t be shopping with us anyway, but I was shocked, to say the least.
And this might seem to some as disparaging the competition.
Good luck on your venture. As you say, I’m sure you’ll hear from the “management” if they feel you are abusing the commercial posting policy.
Thanks for the feedback. Being a traditionalist with other instruments, I completely believe you when you say wood would make better chanters. But I have to say that from the perspective of an experienced Irish whistle player (I’ve been playing them almost 30 years), I love polypenco fipples. I recently had Sandy Jasper make two Elf Songs for me and had her use polypenco on both of them. They repel water and are about impervious to humidity. I had thought this would be a boon to uilleann pipers, but it seems feelings on it are mixed. If I were to change the chanter on our set to wood, we’d really be going up in cost, so I think what I’ll do is hold off on that set for a step up set. The current set is, I’m hoping, going to offer new pipers a “get started” opportunity with good quality to take them through their early piping, and also offer them an instrument that won’t break the bank while they try it out and discover if they are really piping material. But I think I will have them come with cane reeds standard.
I don’t want to give any powder to the guns of the other seller, so I won’t print their letter here. It was politely worded, yet the message was that if we didn’t raise prices, there would be a price war. They can do as they wish. Like I said before, I was just floored to see this kind of thing. I mean, if we come across a competitor selling a key product, like a fiddle, we don’t email them and warn them to raise their prices. It just seemed bizarre. But that’s enough beefing. Everyone does things differently.
Slainte,
Cliff
Reproduceability.
And as has been mentioned a good supply of workable reeds. I think one of the better suits a new ‘maker’ can get his hands into might be the manufacture of semi-finished reeds, something in between what Seth Gallagher and Brian Howard offer. Tied up perhaps to a staple, but nit scraped, or tails cut, just add yopur own staple etc.
This is the biggest single thing I believe that holds back new pipers - the bloody fear of the bloody reed. And for what? So that they can languish in the depths of dispair when it goes south on them due to a climate change? Give the new piper something tangeable to work with, to scrape, adjust and indeed to wreck (very likely anyway) for a decent cost, and get them used to what cane can and can’t do.
Blow them out the door for $10 bucks a pop or something - cheap enough to be able to be afforded, but also enough to make a modest proffit worth the time to get the embryonic reeds ready to go in the first place. Don’t know if this makes any senzse or not, but it seems a good place for many to start in their piping to me.
Who’s going to make all of these reeds? Is there anyone at Celts-cauldron who makes UP reeds? Then there’s tuning the reed to the chanter, and no two chanters (or reeds for that matter) are quite the same… each needs individual attention. I am unaware of any pipemaker who delights in reed making, let alone for somebody else’s sets.
See Joe?? I KNEW all those photos you posted with your hundreds and thousands and bazillions of reeds were leading up to something! I KNEW there was some secret world-domination plot hidden underneath all that Arundo! 
… rats, foiled again. 
Yes - a decent bag and bellows alone will cost you $300 if you are lucky[1]. And believe me, you don’t want an ‘indecent’ bag and bellows, i.e. leaky, ill-fitting, poor action. Things are hard enough when everything is working properly!
So that would only leave $200 for the chanter, which makes it really tough. There are a couple of non-traditional material options, like the brass penny-chanter and some polypenco models, but I doubt you will get a playable wooden chanter for that kind of money[2].
Bill
[1] there are bag and bellows ‘kits’ from DD that cost around $200 for both, IIRC.
[2] maybe Pat can do it for $600, I haven’t tried one of his sets
So this would be Celt-Smith Cauldron’s Choice?
When he changes his name to Weyland the cat will be out of the bag. 
djm