Picky about Bb's . Can't seem to find the Bb or A for me.

Whistle
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I really do not like to use the term “weak” to describe the quality I like in the lower octave, but it is entirely possible that it could be the correct term for the opposite of my personal definition of “fat” . Although weak seems to have a negative connotation, and I happen to prefer it in this instance.

I like how the generation is a bit less overbearing and powerful, which I see as a favourable quality in a Bb. Also, it seems narrower bore versions of whistles (at least I think) seem to respond to ornaments differently, and use less air. Also are less invasive to the eardrums.

Of course much of this could indeed be with the head, but it might not be. Due to lack of describing sounds in english, I simply have to try in order to see, as I have difficulty in describing it in the best way. I am simply looking for narrower whistles to try, in order to see if it does indeed coorelate with how I like my whistles, as using 1 narrower bore Bb isn’t sufficient evidence to draw this conclusion entirely. I’d better be able to determine it simply by trying others of this size, and see if they are to my liking in a similar way.

I should probably not use the term “fat” to describe whistles anymore, should I ? :tomato:

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See, that’s pretty well what I’d expected of the Bb Oriole till I tried it. It shouldn’t ‘work’, but it does… and surprisingly well!

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Yes, I read a lot of older posts where people were saying positive things about the susato S series Bb kildare, too. I can’t speak for it, because I haven’t tried it. But it certainly isn’t considered terrible universally by everyone. I’m still going to try the oriole Bb, just to see how it is.

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The Impempe Bb has a very similar bore width to both the Gen Bb and the Susato B. It has a different timbre than both of those, but I wouldn’t describe it as fat, more like sweet and flutelike, with just a bit of dry raspiness. I like it.

Tony Dixon also now makes his Trad whistles in A and Bb. I don’t have one, so I don’t know about the bore size, but someone made a nice video comparing them on Youtube. It might be something to consider. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI-hr-f_tEE

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I know exactly how you feel, Sirchronique. I’ve had the same problem in trying to find a D whistle I like, and I’ve found that the surest indicator of a whistle I’d like is the bore size. Narrow bore just hits what I’m after. I was trying to find a high-end Bb, since it’s my favorite key to play solo, but everyone seems to favor the low octave over the high octave. I’d really like to try a Bracker in Bb with a narrow bore, but living stateside that’d be a more expensive proposition than I’m currently able to handle. So far the best Bb out of Goldie, Chieftain, Burke, Susato and Freeman is the Jerry Freeman Bb in nickel.

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Sounds like the Sindt A/Bb set is what you are looking for…as several others have mentioned…I have this set and they are fantastic…as close to Generation as you’re likely to find IMHO…

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This “fat” stuff goes to show how difficult it is to verbalise about instruments, both tone and performance.

I prefer a really good Generation over just about anything… the trouble is finding one!

(BTW for me a “really good” Generation has full round low notes, extremely easy and sweet high notes, has that classic Generation tone, and is extremely nimble at negotiating the octaves.)

I have a great Generation C which I’ve been playing for decades, and if I could find a Bb that played like that I’d be delighted. But I’ve gone through a large number of Generation Bb’s over the years and never found a really good one. (I’ve tried other people’s Generation Bb’s which were fantastic, but not for sale!)

I have my own “tweak” that I do to Generation heads to get the tone I want, and I have a Bb like that, but though my tweak gets a great tone it doesn’t fix the tuning, so for studio gigs I use a Freeman Tweaked Generation Bb that plays exactly in tune.

About A whistles, I made a Generation A several years ago that plays great but once again doesn’t have perfect tuning, so I use a Burke A for studio gigs. I really like that Burke A. My opinion seems to be the opposite of the OP’s in that I think the midsize Burkes (F, G, A) are the best of the lot.

About Susatos, I used to have a narrow-bore Susato A (the same bore as the high D) and it played great and had perfect tuning. But I didn’t like the tone. In my opinion Susatos get better as they get lower, and I have a Susato Low C which I’ve used quite a bit.

About Sindts, I borrowed a Sindt B for a gig and it was fantastic. If I had the money I’d probably use Sindts for several keys.

Anyhow I certainly agree that finding “just the right whistle” in any key isn’t easy.

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The Bb generation is one of my favourite whistles

QED?

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Afraid that’s just not possible with the Generation Bb being a good 2mm wider internally than an S-series Susato!

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Just eyeballing with a wooden ruler, my Impempe Bb looks like 13mm internal diameter. My Gen Bb looks like 15mm. I prefer the Impempe’s tone and feel, but it’s quieter and purer than the Gen. Both good whistles.

31

Before you completely hate your Susato, have you tried the MT-Guru O-ring Tweak?

It will make the last 3 notes of the second octave better and less shrilly. I have also noticed that in my recording in a software, the O-ring makes a difference in the wave scatter, that is, the sine/cosine waves are much closer.

Try it. Im not sure how to link the thread created by MTGuru here.

I have a varied opinion with Feadoggie. I have both Susato Bb in S-Series and in M-Series.

I liked the S Series over the M- Series.

IMHO
Bb S-Series sounds a little quiet compare to B-flat M-Series. I guess that is why this is discontinued. But I wonder why they made an Oriole in a similar bore size.
Bb S-Series is easier to control compare to the Bb M-Series. If you want a louder whistle you might hate the low octave of the S-Series.

The M-Series B-flat has a hard control over the last 3 notes. In comparison with Key of A, were the last 3 notes are easier and less push.


I have also read a post here I think from Jerry Freeman that he blunt the blade a little just a little with an exacto knife on his Susato G- M bore and it improved the sound. I did that and it did made it al ittle easy to shift on octaves.

I have also read in some post that Susato has an embouchure technique for it not to sound shrilly.

I have to say, based on my experience, (DISCLAIMER: THIS IS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE AND EXPERIMENTATION, IT IS NOT 100% GUARANTEED)

you need to pout your lips out as if pronouncing the pure vowel “U” or “Tooth” (without the T and th) when blowing it. Make sure also that the opening of the U position is narrow enough to fit the air passage of the beak. It is similar to the flute, but the air should come from to middle not from the top or slanted in some way. This is for you to direct the air flow.
For you to visualize the mouth position, it is like kissing the Susato Large Beak, and not putting the Beak inside your mouth.

Soft palate should be lowered and not high to control the air velocity’s consistency. Doing this makes you control your natural tendency to overblow. With this , it makes you shift your octaves smoothly on a Susato. I have noted this difference on the Low D where when you hit the First octave B and then the Second octave F in single breath. This also applied to the M-Bore series.

I don’t know if it is me, but try raising your tongue in your front lower incisor teeth rather than making it rest in flat position while doing the positions mentioned above. Do not over raise your tongue, raise it to the level just enough to touch the incisors. In this position i seem to hear the Susato sounds sweeter. I have noted the effects specially on the M-bore to the L-Bore, and minimal on the S-Series and quite irrelevant to the VSB series.

Try experimenting on these. Otherwise sell your unwanted Susato to me on a lower price. :laughing:

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Here is the link, Angel: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/mtguru-o-ring-susato-tweak/47141/1

I also agree with your comments about the Susato embouchure.

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I have a Tilbury whistle with bodies in D, C, Bb, and A. While the D and C are very nice, the Bb and A are outstanding. They have excellent craftsmanship, are in tune with themselves, have beautiful tone (pure with a bit of breathiness), and they handle very nicely. The main diference between the keys is that the D and C do require that you push fairly hard in the 2nd octave resulting in loud and clear notes, while the Bb and A have a less demanding, smoother 2nd octave.

Seeing how yall are talking bore size on here as well, these have what appears to be a 1/2" bore.

Also, let me just say that Chuck Tilbury is a great guy to work with. He does not list whistles in the key of A on his site, but he made one up for me and got it to me very quickly.

Josh

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A

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Very well stated. There are several aspects to making a whistle that affect the sound and playability. Height and width of the windway affect volume and purity of the tone. The bigger the louder but there is a threshold you can cross where the sound becomes very breathy and it requires more air control to play notes in tune. The distance between the exit of the windway and the ramp (window) will affect air requirements and volume for the second and third octaves, but also affects the lower octave in the opposite direction. Smaller distance equals easier playing in the upper range, but quieter and need for more delicate air control for the lower range. Angle of the ramp, length of the windway, and cylindrical vs. conical bore all play parts in the overall sound as well… but all of these things have a certain range of acceptable limits that depends on the bore size as well as length of the whistle. This is why there are “narrow-bore” vs. “session-bore” or “wide-bore” whistles. I make B-flat whistles in both. One is 13mm and the other is 16mm. Doesn’t sound like a big difference in size… but it’s a HUGE difference in sound and playability. The 13mm is certainly quieter, but has a sweeter tone and lesser air requirement. That is what some players desire. The 16mm is quite loud, has a warmer tone, and more air requirements. That is also what some players desire.

I find the Generation B-flat to be quite a good medium in this regard. Perhaps a little on the quiet side. Freeman does an absolutely magnificent job of cleaning up the tone, bringing up the upper register in line and in tune, and balancing the sound throughout the octaves on his tweaked whistles. Much of that has to do with the manipulation of the ramp. He adds on underneath to extend it closer to the windway exit and then files it to make the whole ramp a nice, flat surface thus eliminating the small drop at the lip of the ramp which generations have. Making the window smaller, however, does make the whistle slightly quieter… but the cleaner tone and more manageable air control seem to make it sing out better.

I own a few Merlin aluminum whistles and the A is strong, balanced, and has a very pure tone. I would almost say “beefy” tone. Back-pressure is pretty nice on it, a little much once you get past the octave C-sharp… but again, some players prefer that. The bore size is closer to 17mm on it. I can only speculate about the Merlin B-flat, but being that it has the same bore size as the A… I would imagine that it is a bit louder and, unless there is significant differences in the windway and window, it might require a little more air as well as a little more push in the higher register.

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Very well stated, yourself. :thumbsup: For a first post, that’s a doozy. Welcome to the forum, Curtis. I look forward to reading more.

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I’ve been down with a high fever, so I will make a continuation on this post later

But, I got a sindt Bb. exactly what I was looking for, exactly. This is the correct way to make a Bb whistle :wink:. It has a nice slender and whistley tone. Basically it has all the good characteristics of the generation, only amplified, and none of the drawbacks of a generation, in my opinion. The C natural thing didn’t take long to get used to with it. It’s a blessing and a curse, as now I’m going to want a sindt in all the keys :stuck_out_tongue: . It’s a shame that these aren’t as available anymore. I’m surprised nobody is making something similar yet. Does anyone know of any whistles similar to the sindts?

And about the burke, I actually think maybe I just needed to spend more time with that one. I played all my other burkes a lot, but would never spend a lot of time playing that A. I spent a couple weeks playing almost solely that whistle, and well, it’s grown on me! I am enjoying it much more now, just as I do my burke low D and soprano D. I just needed to spend some time playing it more!

Okay, I’ll be back here later.
Thanks for all the responses!