Picky about Bb's . Can't seem to find the Bb or A for me.

Whistle
1

I have realised that I am very picky when it comes to Bb and A whistles.

For high and low whistles, I know what I like. Burkes, MK’s, and goldies. In my opinion whistles just don’t get better than these three.

But for A and Bb whistles, it’s harder for me to find something I like.

The Bb generation is one of my favourite whistles, as I think that key is perfect key for playing alone. I like it because it’s at the low end of the high-spectrum. Because of this, I’ve bought some other whistles in Bb and A. I’ve found I just do not like the sound, and I am convinced the fat bore size is what’s contributing to the “fat” and unpleasing sound (I’ve even seen some maker’s advertise them as sounding “fat” , which confuses me, as that doesn’t seem to be a desirable quality , except in low whistles)

My second Bb whistle was the M series susato. I loved the susato S series B, so I figured I’d enjoy thier Bb. I was surprised by the bore size when I first got it. Tried it, and didn’t like it. Didn’t even come close to the nice whistley sound of the generation Bb. I was sad to see that susato no longer makes the Bb or A with the small bore.IMO The high B is the best susato, and I imagine a Bb in the S series would play similarly.

Later I got a goldie overton Bb (between a hard and medium), used, with several others in high and low keys. I absolutely loved all the goldie/overton low whistles, and equally enjoyed the higher ones made by Colin, too.. but I did not like the Bb. It was 1000x better than the susato, though, and I still use it often for some things. But the generation I still like slightly better. The bore size of this was also wider than the generation.

As far as whistles in the key of “A” go, it’s the same issue. My first one was a susato M series which I bought along with the Bb. Didn’t like it. Got a burke in A, and it was better, but not near as good as his low whistles and his high whistles. He is my favourite maker of whistles, too. This is my primary A whistle, as it’s the best one I’ve got.. however, I am not playing it constantly, as I do with the several low whistles and soprano D that I got from him. I think A whistles could be better. It has grown on me somewhat since I got it, but I think a narrower bored one would be closer to what I’d prefer.

I don’t think I dislike the alto keys. I think it’s a problem of bore size. I love the generation Bb, and it’s actually the only generation I like. I bought two of them, the brass sounds slightly better, but both are good. I don’t know the words to describe what I like about them, but I think they have the right mix of highness and lowness.

So my question is, am I correct in thinking the bore size that most maker’s choose for whistles in these keys is what’s causing them to sound “fat” and less like a whistle should sound? (yes, I know, matter of opinion, but i want a whistle that sounds like a whistle). Perhaps they should offer different bore size options for these keys, if so. There is no such thing as a perfect way to build a whistle, as people want different things. And all of the A or Bb whistles I’ve played have been a disappointment, aside from generation. Since I love the Bb key so much, I’ve been on the hunt to find a Bb which is an improvement on the generation. Something that gives a better quality of tone and playability, but without that honky recorderish fat sound, which I don’t find to sound the best while playing a reel.

And my primary question here, is I am asking for some assistance in what I’m looking for. Are there any makers who make whistles in the keys of A or Bb, which have the playing characteristics of a higher whistle? .Are there any makers who offer a Bb or A whistle with a smaller bore? What are some good Bb whistles which might fit what I am looking for?

Also, if any of you have thoughts on this, or are equally picky about whistles in these keys, I’d love to hear back from you.

And also, I want to make it very clear that I am not trying to show any dislike towards the whistles made by Mr . Burke, Mr. Goldie, or the Susato whistle company. I love whistles from all three, with the first two being in my top favourites. In my opinion burkes and goldies are two of the best makers of soprano and low whistles, and I play whistles made by them both on a daily basis… However, I simply don’t care for the Bb or A. I never tried Colin’s A, or Michael’s Bb, but I am not expecting them to be different enough from the nearest key which I own from them.

So, please let me know your thoughts, and please help me find the perfect Bb and A whistles, ones which actually sound whistley

2

Have you given the Freeman Tweaked whistles a try?

3

Hehe, Immediately after posting I figured somebody would mention that!

I have not tried his Bb.

I really like his bluebird. I think I will try out his tweaked Bb. I will undoubtedly like it.

However, I’m looking for other makers that make a narrow bore Bb. I’m wanting to try all narrow bore Bb’s I can find, until I find one that I think is the best :stuck_out_tongue: . I’m surprised no whistle makers offer this option for their whistles. Surely there are some, and I just don’t know about them yet.

I don’t require one that is like a cleaned up sounding generation, although I will certainly try that, as well. I also don’t mind finding ones that have a much different type of sound (less ugly colours are a bonus too, but not my main priority). I just want to try out all the Bb’s and perhaps A’s which I can find with a narrow bore.

Please let me know if any of you can think of other makers which offer a narrow bore Bb. As narrow, or at least near, to a generation bore size. Sound characteristic can vary from that though, as I feel the narrower bore alone will make it have the qualities I want it to have. I’m down to experiment to find out, anyway.. I just have to find out about them first.

Thanks for the response!

I’m also considering making my own fipple to fit onto a generation body. I’ve been considering this for some time, however I need to learn more about construction before trying this.

4

Try a Susato Oriole Bb, which is definitely small bore at c.12mm (just got mine out to check against your wish list, and think you might like it)…

PS (edited) Hans Bracker also makes narrow bore Bbs and As at 14.6mm, which is barely bigger than the Generation…

http://music.bracker.co/Whistles/Bb_Whistles
http://music.bracker.co/Whistles/A_Whistles

5

Thanks, I’ll give that a try as well! I didn’t even think about checking the other types of susatos. I should have mentioned that the susato Bb I do not like is the M series susato kildare. I’d still really like to find a kildare in Bb S series.

I will certainly try to oriole in Bb, as I’m sure it’s similar. And luckily, both the oriole and the freeman are cheap enough that I can pick up both of them , and have two narrow bore Bb’s to try. I am looking forward to trying both!

I also found out, upon searching google, that a Hans Bracker makes a narrow bore Bb. I honestly can’t tell by how he’s playing it in the sound sample whether I’d like it or not. I’m not exactly sure what he’s doing there. I’ll read more into it, and perhaps find out more about it, as well.

Thanks for the responses, I’m glad I’ve already got some information to get started. Please keep the recommendations coming!

Edit: Ooops, you mentioned the bracker as I was typing this message!

Edit Again: Is the oriole the same bore size as the generation?

I intend to take some measurements of all the whistles I mentioned, and get a list of measurements from some of the makers. I know the generation is almost small enough to fit inside the goldie, but just barely too big. The susato seems to be close to the size of the goldie, if not the exact same, but has a bigger wall thickness.

6

You might also check with Renaldo Reyburn I don’t have one of his Bb or A whistles at hand, but I vaguely recall that they were relative narrow bore. Worth a call or email at least.

Best wishes.

Steve

7

Externally similar, but (having thicker walls) significantly smaller on the inside (Generation bore’s well over 14mm whereas Oriole’s more like 12mm)!

8

Of course you know that this is such a subjective question since it’s impossible for us to determine the qualities you seek. You’ve narrowed it down to tube size and seem to want it sound and play like a better quality Gen.

If that is what you seek, then I’m with Maki, call Jerry Freeman.

My second suggestion, since you don’t seem concerned with cost, is Sindt. I have an A, B and Bb Sindt. All of them are the same tube size as the Generation Bb. Sindt’s have often been described as Gens made out of better stuff and I agree IMHO. Of course you’ll likely wait the better part of a year for it but it’s worth the wait. I bought my A and B from John a few years ago, but the Bb came from a C&F member last year.

good luck,
ecohawk

9

Here are some thoughts for you to consder.

Physics dictates the bore size of a whistle in a particular key. It is not up to the capricious nature of the maker. In order to make an instrument that will play somewhat evenly across two octaves, only a small range of bore sizes will do. Too narrow and you won’t get strong low notes; too large and the high notes are difficult to hit. Of course there’s more to it than just that.

The Gen Bb is a good starter Bb. They do vary a bit from whistle to whistle so don’t count them out entirely. A good one is to die for, as they say. The sound is not for everyone though I am afraid. I happen to like it. One of my favorite Bb’s is a Gen tube with a self made head.

I’ve owned a couple Susato Bb whistles with the S-series bore. That bore is too narrow in my opinion, just my opinion mind you. One of the worst performing whistles I have ever owned is a Bb S-bore Susato. I won’t sell it because I wouldn’t wish this whistle on anybody else. But YMMV. I do not have the Oriole Bb body ( the high D is very nice IMO). I can see why one may not like the M-series Bb Susato - big beak, big holes, etc. but it does play rather well and it has a Susato sound to it if you favor that.

I play Burke Bb’s in brass and aluminum. They are well designed and well made. The tone is typical Burke. The playing characteristics are typical Burke. You either like them or you don’t. There’s no such thing as a whistle that is perfect for everyone. I also play a Burke aluminum A which was selected out of a group of eight brand new whistles at the time I bought it. It is one of the best whistles I have ever played as far as balance across the lows and highs and the playing characteristics are terrifically smooth. But YMMV.

I’d never thought of describing a Generation Bb sound as “fat”. So I guess I really have no idea what you are getting on about and should not consider my thoughts as pertinent to your issue.

But as long as you are taking opinions on good Bb whistles - find a Copeland, a Schultz or an O’Riordan and get back to us.

We all drive whistles differently. You may just be driving too conservatively.

Feadoggie

10

I’ve tried out lots of whistles over the years, and bear in mind that I do not play in a band of any sort, only for my own enjoyment.

I had a few generations Bflat whistles that I thought were OK, though not wonderful. I then bought a Sindt - which I guess I’d sell if anyone would like - and it is very nice. I find John’s work to be very good and consistent. Then I happened across an O’Riordan A, and found that its head fit on a generation tube - and voila, there it is - it simply can’t be beat for what I like to hear. So, you just never know.

I think that’s the beauty, mystery and fun in all this. Something for everyone, and something new around every corner. It is important to be fair and not to objectify it too much - it keeps it alive!

Reg

11

I don’t know the bore size, and haven’t used them(in your favorite keys), but here are some makers you might ask;
http://www.parkswhistles.com/AltoWhistles.html
http://impempewhistles.co.za/5001.html
http://praisewhistlers.org/mackhooverwhistles/
http://webpages.charter.net/raindog1970/


Never owned any Burkes, MK’s, or Goldies (I WISH), but its hard to imagine that they aren’t wonderful in any key.

12

Hi

I agree, the Freeman Gen tweeked Bb is outstanding. As for an A I think you would have a long way to go to beat a Sindt. Opposite ends of whistle making?

13

I’d never thought of describing a Generation Bb sound as “fat”.



Huh? Me either. I never said that. I said the susato Bb and the others had a “fat” sound which I did not like. I said the generation is the only one I’ve played that does not have that quality. Therefore I am looking for one with a similar size , as I am assuming the bore size is the property that is causing such a sound, as I have noticed that the wider the bore of a whistle, the closer in this direction it is.

Also, I’m not sure if I am following you. You are saying that the generation is a good Bb (to which I agree), then you go on to explain how physics dictates a good Bb whistle can’t be made with the same bore size as a generation?


It is not up to the capricious nature of the maker

MK’s and burke low D’s have very different bore sizes, both great whistles. Burke session D and narrow bore soprano d’s have very different bore sizes. Both great whistles. I realise that any bore size doesn’t work with any key, but certainly there is a window which does leave some leeway to choice. And there are certainly qualities of a narrower bore which many people find more favourable, or else there would be no market for narrower bore whistles.

I’m curious how a narrower bore is evidentally possible for soprano and low whistles, but somehow not possible for a Bb whistle, which apparently can’t have a narrower bore size? I’m not sure I understand that.


And ecohawk,

it’s impossible for us to determine the qualities you seek.

The quality/ies I seek are-- Narrower Bore Bb whistle. Similar bore size to a gen.


You’ve narrowed it down to tube size and seem to want it sound and play like a better quality Gen.

The tube size, yes. The rest, no, I specifically said that’s not strictly what I’m after.

I’m strictly after one with a similar bore width to a gen. I’m curious to see whether the bore size coorelates with the qualities I like in a Bb whistle, so I am looking for narrow bore Bb whistles.

I realise that a narrower bore size has drawbacks in other areas of how the whistle plays. However, it seems that the bore size heavily coorelates with the amount of “fatness” to the sound of a particular whistle. I am sure there are other contributing factors, however every whistle I have played (of any key) with a narrow and a standard bore size option, the narrower size always is in the opposite direction of that particular quality. It’s probably not a problem for most people, but it’s not how I like my Bb whistles to sound.

To sum up my entire question- I am looking for narower bore Bb whistles, or any that don’t have the honky fat sound which seems common in this particular key (but is not present in a generation Bb). So what are some examples of these available, or any other whistle which lacks this quality.

14

All of them are outstanding. It’s just that I don’t like some of the qualities of the Burke A or Goldie Bb I have. I’m not saying they are bad whistles. They are indeed good instruments. I simply prefer a different quality than they have in those particular keys. Of any of the higher, or lower keys than these, I prefer them.

15

Yes, I am saying the Gen Bb is a good Bb whistle. Not a grwat whistle by the standards of some people but a good Bb whistle to most of us. The bore is appropriate for the task of playing a Bb scale. And judging by the number of people that use a Gen Bb body with another head, the scale and tuning are good too. Tone and timbre is a very personal taste thing. The head provides the tonal difference.

I know you said that the advertisers used the “fat” term. And while I think we agree that a Gen Bb is not a “fat” sounding whistle. I just really don’t know what that means. In fact I don’t know what “whistley” means either. Do you mean thin, sweet, chirpy, weak or delicate? Just trying to figure out what you want.

A Bb whistle with a bore like a Gen D will not play well at all. It will be whisper quiet in the low end, if the notes play at all. But it will be sweet in the top end and probably have a usable third octave if you and the dogs around you could stand that. But maybe I’m going off the deep end and you were wanting another type of Bb whistle with a Gen Bb bore.

As for the Burke narrow bore versus standard bore whistles. They are at somewhat different ends of the acceptable bore spectrum. And the voicing of each is a little bit different to make them work well. The bore difference is what makes the narrow bore example so sweet and the standard bore a better performer at the low end. That’s no surprise.

In a similar vein a narrow bore Bb is possible against a less narrow bore Bb but the calculations still have to be done to prove each design out. The head design and voicing takes part in the dance too. And while the MK and Burke head designs are somewhat similar outwardly, the internals are a little bit different. And if you read back through enough reviews of both MK and Burke low D’s and you will still find observations about one being a stellar performer at the low end and the other less stellar at the low end (in the opinion of some players).

So there are a lot of differences to be considered. Some are design and materials differences. The playing style and experience of the musician is another difference. Many players don’t drive a whistle hard enough to bring out the best in it. And then again the design of some whistles does not allow them to be driven hard anyway.

It’s a spectrum of many colors. No one can tell you what whistle you will like unless you can adequately describe the nuances of a whistle and the nuances of your playing style. We all like what we like based on our preferences and experiences. And you like what you like and that’s good too. I am just not sure what it is you like at this point other than what you imagine would be the characteristics of a skinny Bb whistle. :slight_smile:

And lastly, the tone of the whistle has much more to do with the design, manufacture and voicing of the head than does the bore.

We’re just trying to help here. :slight_smile:

Feadoggie

16

Hi Sirchroinique

You could try Erle Bartlett of Syn whistles, his Bb (at least the body I have in my set) sounds lovely. He also makes an A body for the whistle set, but you need serious breath control to stop the whistle jumping to the 2nd octave.

Every other A I have tried has had a wider bore and didn’t have the same issue, so getting a fat sound might be the price you pay to get a whistle that doesn’t go into the second octave when you smile at it.

David

17

Yes, I want a Bb whistle with a bore size of a generation Bb whistle. One with the bore size of a generation D whistle would of course be too thin, but I never mentioned their D. I just want to find whistles from other makers, with a bore size identical, or extremely near, to the bore size of the generation Bb.

I probably do not know the correct descriptive terms in order to correctly describe the qualities of sound I would seek. Not to mention, these terms vary from person to person. For instance, I have heard people put “flutey” at one end of the spectrum, then put something else as being the most “non-flutey” type. Then I have read other people compeltely switch it vice-versa and put the other as being flutey, and the opposite as being non flutey! So I really feel such terms are only good to a certain degree , as far as accurate description goes.

However, I feel from what I can tell from playing various whistles of different bore sizes, that the qualities I am after directly coorelate with the size of the whistle’s bore. It does not concern qualities such as "complex, pure, etc. " which I see as being more to do with the head.

I think the bore size (although perhaps not solely) , has a big impact on responsiveness, volume, mellowness, fatness, etc. From what I can tell from playing whistles of similar key but different sizes, I feel some difficult to explain qualities go hand-in-hand with the size of the bore primarily. So, the point of this post is to find out examples of narrower bore Bb whistles, near the bore size of a gen. Bb.

And if I am incorrect in my assumption regarding my liking for narrower bore Bb and A whistles, then the experimentation with them will hopefully point this out to me, hands-on. However, I am assuming that they will be more in the direction I am wanting. I’d like to find more Bb whistles with the bore size of the generation to see if they are indeed my type of Bb whistle, which is hard to find for me, in comparison to my ease of finding low whistles and soprano whistles which I like strongly.

Thanks for the responses

18

Indeed, I’ve noticed this with the narrower whistles, too. However something with the bore-size vs key ratio of a generation Bb would not be too terribly bad in that direction, I think.

For a Bb I would want to try, I would want the same bore size as a gen Bb.

If I were to buy an A whistle, I would not want the exact same size as a gen Bb. -I would want the bore size to scale up proportionally in the same increments as a gen would if they went down to the key of A. Which is still narrower than most A whistles I’ve come across. Regardless, I will look into the Syn whistles, thanks!

I am not looking for the narrowest bore whistles in A or Bb that are available. Simply a Bb of equal bore size to a gen Bb. Or an A which is slightly bigger bore than a gen Bb, but still enough under the size of many A’s on the market. The best way I can describe is an increase in bore size that is equivalent to the increase in bore size that generations use from key to key, on average.

19

Sirchronique, I’m going to suggest that the bore size is NOT what is going to determine the tone of the whistle you are looking for. Granted the bore will determine the volume of the instrument and the way the octaves line up and generally how the instrument plays…but not the tone.

In my experience the voicing is what will determine the tone of a whistle. There is also the factor of what the material of the fipple is made of… ie the density of the ramp which is what the airstream is oscillating over. Brass sounds different than aluminum, plastic or wood. The differences are subtle but can be noticed if one listens closely. However, the thickness of the airstream makes big differences in the tone of the instrument which is what the voicing is all about.

I’m too am not sure what anyone means when they describe a tone as “fat”. To describe the tone I use words like “open voicing” which gives a purer tone with less overtones and is more flute like, and “tighter voicing” which gives a more focused tone with more overtones which is more like a Generation or the typical (if there is such a thing) whistle sound.

As an example I make Bb and A whistles using a particular sized tubing and a particular voicing and can (without changing the tubing) vary the tone by changing the voicing. Simply by tightening the voicing I can bring out the overtones and make it sound more whistly and end up with a whistle that sounds very different.

Most makers end up with a tone dependent upon the technique and design of creating the fipple and the material used.
So I’m suggesting that if you describe the tone you are looking for, I or other makers can make you a whistle that will suit your needs if they have the ability to make adjustments in the fipple.

Best of luck finding the perfect Bb/A whistle
Ronaldo

20

Thanks for the response. Indeed the size of the bore will not affect tone. This is why I keep mentioning specifically that the tone is not important.

If I mentioned anything about a fat “tone” in any of my previous posts, I do not mean characteristics such as clarity, complexity, etc. When I say “fat” , I am talking about regarding many of the characteristics you mention "Granted the bore will determine the volume of the instrument and the way the octaves line up and generally how the instrument plays…but not the tone. "

The volume is likely a big part of what contributes to what I am perceiving as sounding “fat”, perhaps, as it gives a certain type of pronouncement to the lower notes which indeed causes them to sound, in my opinion, out of wack with the upper octave, and “fat” in comparison. In a generation Bb the lower octave has a much more mild sound and is not “fat” in comparison to the upper octave.

In my second message on this post, I am trying to convey that the tonal characteristics are not of importance, and indeed does not need to match the tonal properties of a generation whistle. If I seemed to indicate otherwise in any of my other posts here, it was not my intention.

I feel that wider bored whistles give a certain emphasis to the fullness of the lower octave which does not sound good in a whistle in the key of Bb, but it is only my personal opinion on the matter, which is why I am seeking a Bb of a narrower bore, more similar to a Bb whistle I like.

And unfortunately, I am terrible with descriptive whistle terminology. I’m still trying to find otu what chiff, flutey, etc means. So my apologies for the lack of proper description. I think what I am looking for relates to bore size, but if not, I’d like to see through experimentation with various makes of narrow bore Bb’s aside from gens, to see, since I can’t point out the exact qualities verbally.