philosophical/theological question

Poststructural Pub
1

(Warning: For those who wish to know beforehand and skip this thread, it deals with Christian philosophical/theological issues, which many people consider rather controversial, so please feel free to skip over it if that’s not your kind of thing.)

I have a friend who is an atheist. He is currently going through a rough time. I told him I would pray for him. He said, “No. Don’t pray for me.”

I asked him why he didn’t want me to pray for him and he said he didn’t have a real reason, that he just did not want me to pray for him. He wouldn’t go any further.

So yesterday I asked if he doesn’t believe in God’s existance, how he thinks praying can be a bad thing, since he believes it accomplishes nothing. He seemed kind of distraught so I just left it at that, and I most likely won’t even mention it again, although I am still praying.

But it’s got me to thinking in a more general sense: if a person does not believe in God’s existance, why would he (or she) object to being prayed for? If he or she is right and God does not exist, then praying accomplishes nothing. If he or she is wrong, and God DOES exist, then prayer can accomplish a great deal and he or she would be wise not to object.

So, yeah. That’s what I’ve been thinking about lately. Does that make sense, or am I only coming across clearly to myself?

Thoughts?

2

I think you’ve encountered someone whose “atheism” is probably a reactionary stance.
IOW, something in his life has very negatively colored his view of God and religion, and he is reacting emotionally rather than rationally.
If this were not the case he would probably feel neutral toward the idea that you wanted to pray for him, and he would follow your logic.
With someone like this you really cannot force a religious discussion, but you can keep being his friend and be available if he ever wants to talk about it.

3

That’s the point I’ve come to. I’m just leaving it at that for now.

But in a more general sense (not just as it applies to him) it’s made me wonder about why a person who believes prayer is useless would insist that nobody pray for him. In my mind, it’s along the lines of “sending good thoughts”–a gesture of kindness, which if not effective is not effective, and if it is, then the person shouldn’t mind at all. It’s got my brain in a loop.

I think I just need to quit thinking for a while. :stuck_out_tongue:

4

It goes without saying that one cannot rationally hate God and believe He doesn’t exist at the same time, yet many people do.

Humans are weird like that.

I wouldn’t push the subject too much, it just makes people like that get pissed off.

5

I’m a pretty dyed-in-the-wool atheist and on numerous occasions people (who didn’t know I was an atheist usually) have said they’ll remember in their prayers. As long as it isn’t because they feel sorry for me because I’m an atheist :wink: I take this as a very positive expression of their regard or concern for me and it makes me feel good. It is their expression of goodness after all. Say one for me any time - from my posts I’m sure you think I need it!

Steve

6

Haha. I think everybody needs prayers. And that is how I meant it, as a general type of showing positive concern. But the reaction I got kinda confused me.

I’ve always been one to over-analyse stuff anyway, so I could be just thinking about it too much. Sort of like the which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg thing, when you think about it too much, you can never stop.

7

I think Em is on to something.

Sometimes, it may seem like someone who’s offering to pray for another person is placing themselves higher than the other person, taking a “superior attitude,” whether that’s really happening or not. It depends on what the recipient has gone through in the past in interactions with outwardly religious people whether they would instinctively interpret the offer to pray for them as something welcome or not.

Best wishes,
Jerry

8

Not to be too earthbound answering this, but this reminds me of a question from my profession, which goes like this: Okay, it’s true that research shows teaching grammar does NOT improve writing. But grammar’s cool and kids should know it anyway. Why not teach it?

The way the critics of teaching formal grammar answer that is to say that the time grammar instruction takes away from stuff that does help writing actually makes it a harm rather than just something benignly non-helpful.

A person who is going through a tough time, as your friend is, and who seems especially adamant about his atheism now, might honestly feel that you are squandering your time, at least that amount of it you have available for him. The question might be: what might you do instead for this friend that you are trading off when you pray for him?

I do want to make sure you understand that I am only trying to think through the question you posed, not in any way make a comment about what you should or shouldn’t do.

Carol

9

I’m not an atheist, but I was feeling troubled and I had somebody offering religious solutions that were not my own, I would wonder about their motives. I am happy that Cran has a deep belief, but it would feel to me that your religion is more important than your friendship.

If you know your friend is an atheist, then why bring religion into it?
Why do you feel the need to tell him you are praying for him? Isn’t prayer a private communication between you and God? You can pray for your friend privately and according to your beliefs, your prayer would still have the same effect.

When you give help, think about it from your friend’s belief perspective, rather than your own.

Then pray privately and let God decide the outcome.

:smiley: Mukade

10

Mabey it wasn’t clear so I’ll say it again. I wasn’t really meaning to talk about this situation and person in particular, just the general sentiment that praying is bad, if one believes that no God hears the prayers and how that could be a logical position to hold (thus the word “philosophical”).

I might not have should mentioned this situation in particular, but I thought background information leading up to the question wouldn’t make it sound so obscure.

Anyway, I meant the question in a more “abstract” way. I guess that’s a better way to say it.

11

If he or she is right and God does not exist, then praying accomplishes nothing. If he or she is wrong, and God DOES exist, then prayer can accomplish a great deal and he or she would be wise not to object.

This sounds like another form of Pascal’s wager to me.
Why not ask him why he doesn’t want prayer?

12

Ooooh. I looked it up on Wikipedia. It’s very interesting. Thank you for bringing it up. I think I might’ve heard of that name before, but I somehow forgot it…

13

Maybe I’m repeating myself, but his insistance that no-one pray for him is not based on logic. It’s a purely emotional reaction. As if the pure mention of religion evokes something very negative in his psyche and he’s saying “no! get that away from me!”

Like if you show me a bottle of Ouzo, for example. I know I do not have to drink the Ouzo. Nor do I even have to smell the Ouzo. Even if you only say you’re going to drink an Ouzo toast to me, I’ll still think “yuck! Ouzo!” And all because once I had a very unpleasant physical reaction to Ouzo.
Stupid analogy.

14

I tend to agree here. Atheists tend to catch a lot of flak, especially in certain areas of the country, and could easily develop a strong reaction against any religious connection in their life. It’s a defense mechanism, of sorts, against their opposing environment.

15

Not everybody comes to be an atheist in the same way, much like not every Christian comes to their religion in the same way.

Some nonbelievers feel that in praying for them, you are attempting to push your religion onto them. Some nonbelievers feel that religion is a contagion that spreads by contact (note: this is memetic theory) and they may feel your mentioning prayer is an attempt by that particular belief to spread to a new mind.

Some nonbelievers have gone through very painful experiences, and your mentioning prayer may bring back unwelcome memories…it may even open old wounds.

Some nonbelievers are simply disgusted with all matters of faith and may take your mentioning prayer either as an insult or as your being patronizing.

Some nonbelievers view religion as evil and don’t wish to have any association, no matter how distant.

And the list goes on and on…these are just a few that come to mind quickly.

My best advice: if your friend doesn’t want you to pray for him, be a real friend and don’t do it.

If you feel you must do it anyway, do it privately and never mention it to him.

My question for you: which is more important to you–that you actually pray for him, or that he knows you are praying for him?

–James

16

Hmmm, if this had happened to me, I would think that the individual felt I was trying to force my beliefs on him and was upset by this. Not by the prayer, but by the implication that he was a bad person because he was an athiest.

Now, realistically, nobody can force their beliefs on you, but it’s still really aggravating to think that someone is even thinking they should force their beliefs on you. Even if you aren’t, they’re likely to think you are.

It’s all very tangled and confused.

But, really, one never has to worry about why things are if one simply follows good etiquette. Manners are there to help us through all those ghastly life situations during which we can find ourselves stepping in it and looking even worse than usual.

That’s why one never discusses religion–there are far too many treacherous little piles to step in! It’s only acceptable to mention religion if you’re already sure what faith someone is, and then you have to tailor your remarks in such a way that you don’t tread on anything that could be controversial or upsetting or potentially critical.

“I’m going to prayer meeting. Would you like to go?” “No, I’m an athiest.” “Oh, OK. See you at dinner, then.” Nobody’s upset.

Upon discovering that someone has suffered bad grades or misfortune, it’s appropriate to say it’s a shame, or that you’re sorry. You are always correct in saying “I’ll keep you in my thoughts.”

That communicates the right sentiment, i.e., it gets the point across that you’re concerned. Avoid saying you’ll pray for someone unless you’re already sure they don’t have a problem with being prayed for.

That doesn’t mean you can’t pray for them on the sly . . . just don’t upset them by telling them you’re doing it.

Recruiting for the Almighty has traditionally been achieved more reliably by good example–a sort of stealth proselytizing–than by other means.

17

Cranberry, I know you mean well, but praying for someone who doesn’t want to be prayed for is a bit like the Mormon Church a few years ago posthumously baptizing Jews into their faith. Why do you think Jews around the world asked them to stop doing that?

I could not care less if a Christian prays for me or baptizes me after I’m dead. It won’t affect me at all. I’ll always be who I am.

mukade has it right, there’s no need to tell someone you’re praying for them. That’s a power trip and reminds me of something I heard in my college days. I overheard religious zealot say, “I’m going to pray that you don’t get any sleep until you stop doing that.” The offending party calmly replied, “well then, you’re bound to get less sleep than I.”

18

I am an atheist. Once when I was in the hospital a priest, having gotten my name confused with someone else’s, came by. Once it became clear that I was not the Roman Catholic patient he was seeking, he started to leave and then asked if he could bless me anyway. He asked my permission. He was a very kind, respectful person and I said yes, thank you.

If I were talking about some serious trouble I was having and those to whom I was speaking said that they would pray for me, I would consider that equivalent to people saying they would keep me in their thoughts. I would consider that for them that was indeed the best way they could express their concern.

I have not had the experience of Christian friends saying this because they know of my beliefs and they, as good friends, make a response that will mean something to me in my time of trouble. For all I know they do pray for me, but if they do it is done privately, without announcing it. Nevertheless, I could accept an offer of prayer in those circumstances as being an expression of kind concern.

Let me try to explain the circumstances in which I do have a big problem with this.

If I have not said that I am having trouble and people inform me that they are going to pray for me, that would seem to imply that they feel I am in trouble. Why otherwise would they feel the need to pray for me? I can only assume they feel something is lacking in my life or that I need help. What would that thing be that is lacking? What is it I need help with? The answer would seem to be that I lack Christ. The answer would seem to be that I need help with my lack of belief in Christ. I find this to be judgemental and disrespectful. In those circumstances, if someone feels a need to pray for me, I believe it would be most polite to do so without informing me of it.

If people do not care for my behavior or my opinions, and their response is that they will pray for me rather than discussing the problem with me in terms that mean something to both of us i.e. words, this puts me in the situation of being unable to make any argument. What more can be said? To say one will pray for someone in these circumstances is a way to ensure one has the last word. It can be a means of expressing anger at or disdain for the opinions of others while appearing to be kind.

I fully understand that Christians truly believe that those who do not accept Christ as their personal saviour are lacking something important in their lives. I just as strongly believe another way and people of other faiths believe strongly in other things.

How are we to get along? I think we have all noticed that there are a number of difficulties between various religious groups. This is why the question is important to me. I would suggest that we don’t interfere with other people’s lives unasked or make comments either by word or deed about their beliefs.

Just as I would never dream of simply going about saying that people that pray have the wrong idea (even though I believe that very strongly), I would equally expect that people who believe otherwise equally strongly would not go about implying that I had the wrong approach by offering the prayers that I do not offer for myself.

To not interfer in someone’s life unless asked to is a way of showing respect for that person. Although I do not believe in the power of prayer, I do feel that to pray for me without asking my permission or if I have asked that I not be prayed for is a gesture of interference in my life. It is a gesture that makes a comment about my beliefs. The prayer itself does not affect me of course, it is the gesture that is loaded with meaning. The lack of logic in objecting to something one does not believe in is an interesting point but not relevant to how I feel because it is the meaning behind the gesture that I find important.

I intend these words peacefully. I would hope that eveyone could get along. I believe that many of my posts would show that. But right here in this thread, I see that people like me are considered to be taking a reactionary stance, to be reacting emotionally rather than rationally, irrationally hating God and believing he doesn’t exist at the same time, weird, pissed off, having defense mechanisms. I am just using these phrases as examples, not to indicate personal upsetness.

I know these comments aren’t aimed at me personally. But can you (and I am speaking to no one in particular here) see it from my point of view? If I prefer to not have someone pray for me, that makes me, in the view of many apparently, these unpleasant things. How would that make you feel? Do you feel these things that have been said would be helpful in creating peace between people? For those that don’t mind unsolicited prayers, I think that is just fine. It is none of my business. I truly have no concern about that. But how about me? What actually have I done that would merit being regarded in such a poor light? If something in my life has very negatively colored [my] view of God and religion, perhaps it is comments such as these that have done so.

Again, I know the comments are not made against me personally and I do not take them that way. I understand we are just having a discussion here. I am not angry, although clearly I have very strong feelings about this topic. I do appreciate the warning that was given at the top of the thread. I came to this thread with the intention of clarifying for myself just exactly why I am offended by unsolicited prayers and other unsolicited comments that would fall more or less into the same category. I have clarified that for myself, if not for others. Thank you for reading this if you managed to get through it.

19

I’m going to come at this from an angle that may or may not be accurate for this situation, but I’ll make the observation anyways… :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m going to assume that this is a college/college age friend. At this age, a lot of people (myself included, way back when) tend to become very attached to a new-found ideological position or ethos, and can be really militant about it. If this person is an atheist, they might take it to its extreme and feel that their worldview has to be adhered to in its purest form; that is to say, they wouldn’t want someone praying for them because that is just “not right” according to their ideology; similarly, you feel that it wouldn’t be right to withold prayer in any case. With time, this person may not be so militant in his views–people are funny that way. At any rate, on a personal note, feel free to pray for him, but try not to touch any raw nerves by talking about it around him.

Robin

20

Your justification is Pascal’s wager. (I haven’t read the thread so my apologies if someone else has pointed this out.) For it to work, you have to assume that God doesn’t mind insincere praying and I find that hard to swallow.

The reason an atheist would object is that it might feel like being spiritually imperialised and your persisting with questioning despite his discomfort is not helpful IMO. You can say something that is perfectly neutral like, ‘I’ll keep you in my thoughts.’ That doesn’t prevent you from praying if you think it might help but it doesn’t help to tell him that that is what you are doing. My guess is that he thinks you are pestering him but doesn’t want to be blunt because he appreciates your concern.

If this guy is going through a rough trot, that is the last time you should try to drag him into a conversation about the efficacy of prayer. Here’s a guy who’s doing it tough who has made a modest request of you. Why can’t you just comply or at least pretend to? Why keep on about it? For people who are vulnerable, being forced to confront the big issues is not something a friend should impose on them.