Is it just me being over critical or does the Chiff & Fipple need a major update on whistle info? I havent been to other parts of the website but I find most of the info in the whistle section to be very much out of date. When you have the last updates listed as 2004 or 2005 that’s pretty old info. One example is the John Sindt whistle. And recent reviews? Tuning problem on C natural? I’m fairly sure that’s been corrected from the two Sindt whistles I’ve had. Also I think John only makes whistles in a couple of different keys now and not the whole spectrum almost. There’s also a waiting list of 18 to 24 months for one of his whistles now and prices are about 75% more than the ones listed here.
That’s just one example and there’s tons throughout the whistle section. I’d have to say that if I was a beginner that a lot of this info would be useless or misleading.
Just a thought. Am I wrong and being over critical? Thoughts? Anyway we can get together and revive this site and update it?
No, you’re not being overly critical. You’re exactly right. (Speaking here as the person who put it all up, many years ago.) The website is hopelessly outdated. I have thought of it as an archive, more than anything else, in the last few years. You raise a point that some of the information, because it is outdated, would be misleading for a beginner.
During the years I put up all the material, I used FrontPage to create it. I still have that software, but, for reasons too dull to detail, it would take me quite some time to get the systems fired up to be able to do major updates.
Also, to be honest, as some veterans around here know, I got beyond my obsession with whistles some time ago, and I don’t have the time to revamp the site. Not to be critical of others, but I went through a round of requests for help with that some time ago and got no offers. I completely understand that, by the way.
I would still love to see a completely new version of those three areas (cheap whistles, expensive whistles, and low whistles.) That could be done right here on this forum, and there are probably advantages to using this format rather than a static website. But, I just can’t take it on. If anyone wants to coordinate it, I’ll do what I can to help.
Well, I think the process would be to establish a forum (a subarea of the board) for whistle information. Within that, a post would be made to establish a thread for each known maker. Then each post would be developed with information about each “brand” of whistle. It could be updated on the fly.
I think this new area would probably need a sort of moderator/curator.
I have offered to do the updates for you in threads and I believe I sent you a PM… I believe that the length of time that the C&F web sitte has been up has gained it a reputation and high rankings in search engines and it is still used as the definitive source of information on whistles. There is a lot of information on these boards, but a newbie has a hard time finding it, so a web site update would be much more to the point. I would be happy to update the list of makers and request each of them to provide me with information that they would like shared about their whistles on chiff and fipple and updated photos etc.. I would need passwords and all that to update stuff and know what you are using for webhosting to see if my work would be compatable etc. But it needs to get done!
Though I’m not usually this critical, and please don’t take this as a criticism of you as I’m only trying to provide some accurate data about John Sindt. I just received an A whistle and a Bb tube that I ordered from John on 2/12/12. I recieved a B whistle from John in July. The Cnat, and the equivalent position on whistles in other keys, remains just as off (sharp) as it ever was. John likes “just” intonation so if you want that note you’ll still need to either blow very softly or half hole, which is what John still suggests and is pretty easy to do. It’s also a skill that everyone should master since you!ll need on other notes anyway.
I wasn’t saying I’d attempt it solo, I’d heavily rely on input from others, I was simply offering my web designing skills and time, and yes as a maker it would be nice to be included in that list, but I wouldn’t do anything on the site to promote my own instruments above others. we makers are pretty open with each other and not really in competition so much. I think I have demonstrated that by inviting all of my competition to my hometown to sell their whistles at Fipplefest. I know I’m not the only maker out there who wishes the site was updated. having the info on the board is a good idea, but not a replacement for the web site, unless you are going to take the info on the web site down permanently, otherwise please either update it, or let someone willing to do it update it. perhaps I could do the work and MTGuru could edit it and make sure there is no bias to anything?
I don’t think there’s much point in trying twist Dale’s arm about this. He’s moved on and that’s fair enough. Nothing lasts forever.
It would probably be a good idea to just ditch the whole section with outdated information. It won’t be lost, people who want to check it or who feel nostalgic about it can use the waybackmachine and look at the pages on archive.org. Not a bother.
A forum would need very close monitoring if the information is going to be reasonably correct. Whistleplayers, especially beginning ones, can get really carried away waxing lyrical about their latest purchase and as it is the forums are littered with wildly varying opinions that are not always based on any knowledge or reasonable playing experience. Which means they supply information about what the poster thinks, not necessarily contain much in the way of useful information about the actual (workings of the) instrument.
That’s true and important. It’s always hard to withstand the temptation to write an enthusiastic praise of your new whistle. I’d suggest the compromise to transfer the reviews (possibly even the existing outdated ones) to a special-purpose set up blog, where others can add comments concerning newer information; the main reviews would still be Dale’s ones. This also would not be too much effort, you’d just need to register one and copy-paste all the stuff. And, it would be not as unclear as a loose forum, though maybe still confusing for beginners (which is probably still better than getting completely misled).
It will always be tricky stuff though. Take for example threads asking about a whistle with specific characteristics. The first few replies are usually somewhat relevant answers to the question asked but as the thread goes on just about every whistle under the sun will get a mention. most of them not remotely resembling what the OP what asking after.
The original review section was set up by one person, Dale. Even if one person’s opinions can be biased in certain ways, you can learn to ‘read’ them with a bit of experience. Dealing with a whole range of opinions from loads of people from different experience levels, it’s anyone’s guess what they’re really saying.
At the end of the day, the only reliable way to pick a whistle is to hold it in your hand and play it. I have, over time, bought a number whistles that were universally praised here. They were all, in one way or another, disappointing and not worth keeping. There’s a lesson there.
My suggestion would be that the main point be a more or less standardized entry for each whistle. Like:
Maker:
Contact information:
Website:
Keys available (with current prices):
Materials:
(pictures)
I really would not recommend cutting and pasting my reviews in, certainly not at as a matter of routine. I did those a long time ago. The products, in many cases, are updated and there are far more knowledgeable and experienced people out there.
I’m not even sure what I think about people posting “reviews” on these listings. The term implies something that most of us are not really capable of: a detailed, systematic evaluation. It’s worth talking about.
Some people who I have suggested come here (the forum) and who Googled for it never got past the main C&F page because it was not obvious where the forum was and what they did find seemed dated. Would a new shorter home page with much of the existing site shunted off into an archive link work ?
There is a lot of good general advice on there that people on the forum sometimes forget to direct newbies too.
That’s only slightly expanded from what Jemtheflute has done with the list of wooden flute makers on a sticky on the Flute Forum. He provides the first three bits of info—and has had some difficulty keeping up with that. (Maybe there’s more flute makers or they hide better.)
To provide the above info, either someone would have to be responsible for contacting the makers periodically to ensure that the info is up to date; or the makers could be responsible for maintaining their own sections. While several makers post here regularly, is there a sense that enough follow this Forum—and would be willing to keep their entries current—to have this be a viable option? Or is it possible to find a volunteer to build and maintain such a system?
I agree that much of the material Dale originally pulled together is of great interest to whistle-oriented archaeologists, but may have out-lived its shelf-life. However, without that info, I doubt that this forum would be anywhere near what it is today. So thanks to Dale for having the vision (or narrow focus) to set this all up and keeping us busy on rainy mornings like this.
Whistle wiki sounds like a splendid idea and I’d definitely be up contributing to it. And fair enough Dale for moving on! From managing my own website myself it is fairly time consuming, more so when you need to double check and verify the existing information. Seems like a simple wiki type set up would be the easiest to organize and easiest to get the community at large to contribute and edit.
Ecohawk, As for Sindt. When I ordered the first time from John back in 2006 or so I was told he was only making C and D whistles. As for your expedited order, I would say that he must have some sort of quota for different keys due to the lesser demand for keys other than C and D there’s probably a shorter waiting list. I’m currently waiting for another D from him and I placed my order in April of 2011. He recently told me he should be getting to mine within the month. Everyone I know that’s ordered a whistle (in D) in the past few years as waited a good 18 months at least. A simple email to him asking for his wait list would clarify this.
I started playing whistle in 2006, and have owned many makes and models over the past 6 years and would certainly glad to contribute photos for such an effort if need be. As most folks, I found photos to be interesting and helpful, especially considering the variety of makers, woods, etc., that are out there. My over-the-top enthusiasm has waned as has many, but I agree to keep the ball rolling we should take advantage of this vast wealth of resources and unify the information as much as possible, and minimize the ‘use the search function’ reply that everyone just loves to see when they ask a question.
Often a poster will link to photos that are later removed from their server, and photos vanish. A dedicated image storage space would be very helpful in keeping such a 'Whistle-pedia and Museum" fully functional, me thinks. Just a thought or two.
I think the Wiki idea has a lot of merit. That and and an archive space for images would seem just the ticket. I’d love to participate in the creation or maintenance of that if Dale is willing.
maneermalik, I have no disagreement with your statement about the wait time for Sindt whistles, but was only stating my experience for the record. You could be absolutely correct about the priority of certain keys over others. The last D I bought from John (brass/silver) was received in October of 2011. It could also be that I’ve bought 12 whistles or tubes (I often give them to whistle playing friends as gifts) from John since 2009 so he might be giving me a little preferential treatment too. Who knows?
I know that when I first started out, I read a lot of the outdated info thinking it was up to date (it IS the internet) and only after a few months did I realize that a lot of the stuff was not recent (It’s weird to think of 2005 as being so long ago). It also took me a long time to make it to the forum itself, as in a couple of years. The main thrust of the website seems to be the whistle info, with the forum being a bit of an afterthought.
I’m curious, can “ownership” of the website be transferred to another individual?
