It can all be distilled down to this: it’s the magic in the music.
It’s that one note that should be a sharp but played as a natural.
That page by Brother Steve which you cited in the initial post is full of wisdom, Beth, and you shoud feel free to throw the link to it into a lot of other threads on issues like newbie questions or learning by ear rather than from the page.
While Steve draws analogies to cooking, my preferred analogies are more romantic: the music is an infatuation thing, just like that girl or guy that you fall for without there being any obvious rational explanation.
The parallels extend further - just as we can find a person of any hair colour attractive, some people notice that they are more often struck by blondes or brunettes , and in the same way some of us find more jigs or more reels captivating us. There’s also a parallel to the Cleopatra’s nose phenomenon: in the same way as we find a particular feature of the beloved fascinating/beautiful/cute, sometimes our infatuation with a given tune is focused on the way a particular phrase is played.
It’s becoming obvious (to me, at least) that there are as many reasons that Irish music is so great as there are devotees of the music. Brings to mind a little song from years gone by (a commercial jingle?) called “Happiness Is” :
“… different things to different people, that’s what happiness is.” 
~Larry
On 2002-10-09 18:19, garycrosby wrote:
Why do some people think van Gogh was a genius whereas others shake their heads wondering how a painting of a few flowers could be worth $40 million?
Gary, you got that right! Everytime I see that picture I think “So?”. If I wanted a vase of sunflowers in my house, I’d like a real one at least. I always think still life is just for artists practising their skills, not actually intended to be hung on a wall and looked at.
Still, worse things have been created in the name of art in recent years, most amusing to me was a pile of rubbish in the Tate gallery, that was so convincing a cleaner took it away.
It’s happy and it’s sad,
It’s fast and it’s slow,
It’s easy and it’s complex,
It sounds familiar, yet foreign,
It laughs and it cries,
It invites you to join in, in your own voice,
It’s new and it’s old,
It’s cool as a summer breeze and as warm as a winter fireplace.
Mike Burns
I disagree with those who say it’s all a matter of personal taste and that no music is really better or worse than any other. I also don’t think it’s true that classical music is all reason and no emotion, nor that Irish traditional is all emotion and no reason. Purely “rational” music is stuff like twelve-tone compositions: I know lots of people who love classical music but no one who really likes to listen to that stuff. Nor is it possible to compose jigs and reels without the intellect. Dogs have feelings, anyone can tell, but they don’t make music. Birds sing, but not with style or imagination; they only sing the song that’s given to them.
People are different, I think, because they have reason and emotion. The reason part influences all music of any kind. Classical, Irish, rock, pop, are all founded on the same rational structure, the harmonies that are embedded into the structure of the world and of matter. It’s not a human convention that one string twice as long as another of the same thickness and tautness will sound an octave lower; it’s in the nature of things, and understanding this and other mathematical relationships is what has made all music possible.
At the same time all music is not the same. Classical composers are trying to do something very different from the grunge band in the garage next door. In this way musical structure is like a language, which holds its vocabulary and grammar in common but can say lots of different things with it. Classical musicians are doing something like philosophy, if they are Bach, something like epic poetry, if they are Beethoven. Monks in their monasteries are both singing and praying. The grunge band is being angry and anarchist, the pop star is giving out one big commercial for shallow modern ideals.
In other words, I think very seriously that music can be either true or false, and therefore either good or bad. If this is right than Irish traditional music can be said to be good because it is true. Somehow it gets down into the soul of things and tells us who we are. It doesn’t expose us to the profound thoughts of single great men, but it lets us into the common mind of a people who have suffered much and loved much and rejoiced much and have turned their suffering and rejoicing and loving into something beautiful. In their music, or our music, we too can turn our suffering and love and joy into beauty in a way that is simply impossible with other music.
[ This Message was edited by: Michael Sullivan on 2002-10-10 09:27 ]
Fast, slow, fun, sad and easy to transport.
The base for may other types of music so a common theme if not rhythm comes thru. Comes form the heart like most folk music but can be found in any county in the world to some degree.
“Soulful” is possibly the best description and reason.
Michael,
I agree with much of what you said regarding music being a vocabulary. I definitely think that anyone who has heard Beethoven’s 9th would agree that there is more than intellect involved with classical music.
That being said, while agree that an individual piece of music can be seen as being either good or bad, that the same cannot be said for a style of music, and that is what I meant when I said that it is ultimately a matter of taste. For example, as a whole I don’t like country music, the common style of singing just annoys me, but that does not mean I can’t appreciate the fact that others love it and that some of it is quite good, and if arranged and sung differently could be something I would like alot. On the flip side, there are traditional irish songs and tunes that are litte more than fluff (drinking songs anyone?) but I like them because I, in general, just like the style. That is the part that is really a matter of taste.
Liam,
I think perhaps that syles of music should be distinguished from kinds of music. Style or the way it’s done is different from what it really is at bottom. In the end just about all pop, rock, country, etc. songs are essentially much more like each other than they are like, for instance, a fugue. An english symphony and an english ballad are much more different than an english ballad and an appalachian ballad.
That being said, I think that one can reasonably claim that there are both styles and kinds of music that are bad or at least bad for you. Much heavy metal, for instance, is simply bad–bad for the eardrums, bad for the attitude, bad for morals, bad for the soul. The verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus structure is perfectly legitimate, as are the scales and chords employed, and gregorian chant proves that there’s nothing wrong with simplicity of structure . . . nevertheless the way that it’s done, the grinding and the thrashing and the screaming and the feeling of hate and rage, are I think just bad.
As for kinds of music, much of what I’ve just said about heavy metal style could apply to gangsta rap as well, but there are additional problems. It tends to degrade the language (a non-musical consideration, strictly), but its lack of structure, lack of melody, lack of harmony, and the necessity for so many non-musical elements to sustain itself, make me think that it just can’t be called good music except by a gross distortion and extension of the term.
You could argue, of course, that it has cultural value and a claim to being real art. I don’t think so, but I’m not arguing that point. I’m just saying you should call a spade a spade. There are many kinds of buildings, and perhaps it doesn’t make much sense to ask whether skyscrapers are better than cathedrals: they’re not supposed to equivalent. But surely cathedrals are better buildings than shanties and huts, and surely, even if it requires construction, we don’t want to let modernist sculpture call itself a building as well.
This is all good stuff, but the “you have to experience it” view won’t be of much help to him. Can anyone suggest some more advice to help someone deal with an irish music nut? Those of you who are married to non-whistlers and the like probably know where I am coming from!
- Cherish the Ladies - need I say more?
- Steeleye Span - so what if they’re English. They’re more Irish than alot of Irish bands.
- Lunasa - I wish i could play guitar like that!
- Altan - one word: Donegal.
- Sharon Shannon - adorable!
Michael,
I suppose that we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think it all comes down to taste, and taste simply cannot be dictated. I doubt that anyone could find something that every person in the world would agree was good music.
If I understand you properly, your primary claim about Heavy Metal seems to be the anger and the relative lack of refinement of its presentation, but others like that music for those very qualities (as for bad for the ear, well that is true of pretty much any amplified music).
As for Rap, I admit that it certainly breaks with most traditional forms (except rhytm which seems to be what holds it together) but I am unwilling to pass judgement to its merits simply because I don’t like it.
Friends visiting my home a few years back used to be given a blindfold test. I played some waulking songs sung by ordinary islanders in Gaelic and recorded by Alan Lomax in the late '40’s not far from where my maternal grandmother was born. Guesses ranged from Ethiopia to Outer Mongolia but only one person ever guessed right—Outer Hebrides—and then only after several tries.
When I told her a bit about the music she said how jealous she was of me to have a ‘real’ ethnic background and lamented the fact that she only had a boringly English background. I quickly corrected the impression that she had no worthwhile folk heritage by playing some June Tabor and Waterson/Carthy records but the lament left a lasting impression.
I think that increasing interest in celtic music in general is part of the widespread increase in interest in ‘world music’ as an alternative to the monolithic conception of popular culture projected at us by the mass media. Finding a lack of sincerity, character and warmth in the latter, we gravitate to music that isn’t plastic. And guess what, most of us are descended at least in part from Irish and Scottish Gaels. (Well own up, a lot of us are, aren’t we?) There’s also a Jewish branch in my family. I can assure those who don’t already know that there has been a huge upsurge of interest in klezmer in recent years and some wonderful attempts to update it and produce interesting fusions. Anyone interested? Check out David Krakauer or the Tzadik label.
How to convince someone who doesn’t react as my friend did? I’ve no idea. I long since stopped feeling hurt or sad when what moved me failed to move my friends. I just reach for a CD in a style we both like.
It’s happy and it’s sad,
It’s fast and it’s slow,
It’s easy and it’s complex,
It sounds familiar, yet foreign,
It laughs and it cries,
It invites you to join in, in your own voice,
It’s new and it’s old,
It’s cool as a summer breeze and as warm as a winter fireplace.
Could not the same be said for many other genres of music? I think so.
On 2002-10-10 14:02, Wombat wrote:
How to convince someone who doesn’t react as my friend did? I’ve no idea. I long since stopped feeling hurt or sad when what moved me failed to move my friends. I just reach for a CD in a style we both like.
Certain genres of music will move certain people whereas other genres will move others. If a certain genre doesn’t move you then you may learn to like it but you will never love it. But, what moves you is simply a matter of personal taste. What determines personal taste is a complex issue with no easy answer.
I hope people don’t get the impression that I’m down on IRTrad because I’m not. I just think that music, like art, books, or movies, is a completely personal thing with little ryhme or reason as to why some people like some genres whereas others like other genres.
Its easy to draw lines between what we perceive as good music or bad music or between high art and low art. But, its just as easy to see that the lines we draw are completely arbitrary, subjective, and highly personal. My lines are not the same as the ones drawn by my wife or my co-workers or by anyone else. And, it is likely impossible for me to convince other people that my lines are correct and theirs are not. Therefore, you can’t convince your friends to love the music that you love.
On 2002-10-10 11:50, avanutria wrote:
This is all good stuff, but the “you have to experience it” view won’t be of much help to him. Can anyone suggest some more advice to help someone deal with an irish music nut? Those of you who are married to non-whistlers and the like probably know where I am coming from!
The “you have to experience it”, or “if you have to ask…” won’t be of any help, nor will anything else you can say. This question is more about the relationship rather than the passion. Your partner will either accept your interests or not. Don’t expect the person to share your love for whatever, but expect them to understand and support you. My hubby has no interest in music rather than casual listening, and doesn’t particularly care for trad. But, he supports me completely. He knew when he hooked up with me that I had been a musician since age 6 and I wasn’t about to stop until I die. I knew he was an avid collector and a dreamer (although, the dreams get a little more realistic as he grows older). I wouldn’t change a thing and support his interests and crazy ideas. I suppose that’s the bottom line when living together - you may not always understand or share the obsessions, but love each other enough to give that space and support. It’s not just understanding the love of trad., but one another.
Teri
Liam,
your objection that people like what I call bad music for the very reasons that I call it bad is not really a difficulty for me. Just because not everyone thinks it’s true does not mean that it’s not true. Truth, much as many would like to have it so, cannot be determined democratically. If it’s true, it’s true even if most people don’t believe it. If it’s good, it’s good even if lots of people hate it . . . and it can be bad even if many people love it. Take junk food! Is it good for you just because you like it? (Not that I’m implying anything about Liam’s diet personally.) Of course not. Enough people trust in science to believe that junk food is bad for you, but most of these people eat it anyway. Not as many people will admit that some music is bad for you, but I know a few that do and listen to it anyway. I know one girl who listens to certain kinds of music only when she’s depressed and feels bad about herself, precisely because it heightens those feelings and she prefers to just wallow in them. I don’t think it’s a stretch to call this bad and unhealthy.
I believe that all music acts this way: it habituates the mind to certain ways of thinking and certain kinds of attitudes. If there are good and bad thoughts and attitudes there must be good and bad music. Whether this is universally accepted or not makes no difference.
This is not to say that people are bad if they don’t like good music. Many are incapable or uninterested in learning about it, as they have every right to be. There are lots of good things in the world, and nobody can enjoy them all. My wife for one is a completely back-ground noise type of musical appreciator. But I do think that people who are very attached to some kinds of music have unhealthy minds. Just look at their lives or listen to their words! Not everyone who listens to death metal is a criminal; most I’m sure are not. But their music never helped them become saints either. Instead, whether they act on it or not, it urges them towards promiscuity, drugs, violence, and mindlessness, not only in the words but in the sounds themselves, by making them accustomed to feeling and looking at things a certain sort of way. And this simply seems bad.
- Perhaps because if you know and like Appalachian or some other kinds of American country music, it is quite small step to Irish music. So American folk and country music did a lot of “promotion” for Irish music.
- If you know a song on a fiddle, you know it on Irish banjo, also on a mandoline - the fingering is the same. If you know the song on whistle, you know it on Irish flute. Also you don’t have to transpose if you play with someone you met for the first time - he/she knows the melody at the same key!
- it is the “world music”, still it is European. For me, it seems to be very old, so different from Central European folk music, but at the same moment very similar to “old layers” of Central European folk music. Sometimes I think “wow, so in this way played Central European Celts 2000 years ago! The complexity and high standards of this music resembles the complexity and high standards of 2000 years old Central European Celtic art”.
- there are so many nice melodies and so many excellent performers (Planxty, Lunasa…)!
- the Irish bagpipe is (I think) the most advanced bagpipe at the world, with execellent sound and excellent technical potential
On 2002-10-10 14:50, Teri-K wrote:
This question is more about the relationship rather than the passion. Your partner will either accept your interests or not. Don’t expect the person to share your love for whatever, but expect them to understand and support you.
Teri
I agree with Teri. My husband tolerates listening to Irish music for a while, then politely asks if we can hear something else or leaves the room. He owns a whistle and plays it once in a while, but nothing to the degree I do. It isn’t his thing and that’s fine. He knows I love it and he’s fine with that and supports me when I want to go to Irish music things.
Conversely, he loves to play computer games for hours and I find that extremely boring and can’t really understand why he finds it so fascinating. However, I accept that he does and try to be leave him alone when he’s playing so he can have that time to relax.
All in all, I can’t say it any better than Teri did.
MCM Transatlantic Whistle Detective Agency - no case too small.
Branches in London and Salt Lake City
[ This Message was edited by: Cees on 2002-10-10 17:00 ]
Well, all I can report on is my own experience:
On first hearing, you think it’s really neat–but it sticks in your head, and you wake up in the dark of the night endlessly repeated tune fragments.
On each subsequent exposure, it grows in your mind, first an attraction, then a fascination, and finally an obsession.
Some of the music carries vivid images, some carries deep emotion. It wakes up some part of me that sleeps the rest of the time.
My best wishes to all,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com