OT: Students complain about liberal faculty bias ...

I am always happy to disagree with you Ants, but I think in this particular instance we were speaking about different things.

Perhaps it is time to consider that liberal isn’t liberal. And it isn’t equivalent with proponents of PC in the perjorative sense. I find the liberal types annoying who regard education (and pratically every aspect of public life) as an opportunity to change society by changing the way people think or speak. I find this equally annoying in the moral majority and Christian fundamentalist types.

On the other hand, I don’t think it reflects on the teacher’s ability or legitimacy if he or she believes that there should be comprehensive public medical insurance or not; if he or she believes that the invasion of Iraq was morally and legally justifyable or not, and so forth.

Finally, I get worried when I meet someone in their teens or early twenties whose mind is made up, one way or another.

Exactly! Like my instructor in my Multicultural Literature class spent the entire first class telling us all how she was going to “completely change how you view the world” blah blah “life changing experience” blah blah “open your eyes to all the lies your teachers and parents told you” blah blah blah.

I think it’s funny how on my campus, all the hard sciences: chemistry, biology, physics, etc are on South campus (below the football stadium) and all literature and philosophy and arts, etc is up on North campus. Guess where psychology and sociology are? Yup, North of the football stadium. :laughing:

It usually IS made up, to the left. Then it changes, or may not later, usually because of life experience, like having kids, owning property and thinking of future generations’ fate. Who do you think the shock troops of these ideologies consist of? You have to be pretty convinced of something to go riot at WTO meets.

So many times, the words come out as though all is being questioned, but most often its cultural relativism, socialistic idealism and anything-but-mainstream religious thinking that is the net effect of faculty indoctrination. I vividly remember my college days, when so many of my friends went off to UC Berkeley (I couldn’t go there because they didn’t have a music performance program). By the end of the first year, it was all about Marxism and Buddhism (and walking against red lights on Telegraph), two intellectual systems that people who think they are smart are drawn to.

(When I read Sam’s notes and a few others, I realize that this is changing, thankfully, btw. And, my experience is limited to the Bay Area, plus what I see, her and read in media about other areas)

You only get worried if its rightist thinking, Bloomfield, imo. You don’t argue with the liberal youngsters here, ever.

Well it’s kind of like this: families send their kids off to school with a little backpack stuffed full of a set of morals, religious ideas, notions about How the World Works and Where I Stand in it, and as they’re walking through their college careers, each little bit of it is being plucked out of their backpacks while they’re not paying attention and replaced with something more palatable to the politics of the school, whatever it may be (I’m sure that religious/conservative schools are just as guilty of it as the more typical liberal ones, as most people in the academic world seem to think it their responsibility to tell everyone how to live their lives and what politics to follow, beyond just the actual academic material).

The problem is the fact that kids are NOT taught to think for themselves in grammar and high school. Critical thinking, unfortunatly, is pretty much beyond a great deal of my peers, and also they’ve been taught NOT to question authority, so they’re ripe for this sort of indoctrination. They don’t stop and think “okay what do I think about this particular idea? Does it follow some sort of logic? Do I agree with it?” Either they have a knee-jerk reaction to just reject everything they’re told in order not to go against what their mommy and daddy said, or (more often) they just swallow it all as gospel truth without question, and frankly both are pretty pathetic ways of going through life. I’ve changed my mind about quite a few things in the past three semesters at this school, but I am by no means what they want me to be.

When they say “question everything” they usually mean “question everything else but us.” I generally just go with the literal meaning of the first statement. Question everything, even the ones telling you to question everything.

I like your post Sam. My question about it would be: can you teach those things to younger students? The reason I ask goes back to whole teacher-student relationship. I pondered this a lot in my music school days, when I studied guitar technique, which was a very exacting discipline and training regimen.

It seemed like one was expected to follow, unquestioning, what the teacher said in order to absorb and emulate their system of teaching, which was the whole point of studying with them.

My questioning mind reflected: When am I ready to make my OWN decisions about technical solutions? Will the fruits of my instructor’s labor be harvestable if I don’t follow their method?

I know this has limited applicability to general subjects, but as the other Weekender is a teacher, we often discuss teaching history to Fourth graders. Can you really teach history in any meaningful way below a certain age group? Will they absorb and reflect on that knowledge or is it doomed to be cardboard cutouts of people and their actions? It seems like primary education and into secondary involves just a mass of info, and critical thinking might be hard to insert in there, even though, from our view, it makes it all worthwhile.

Don’t know the answer to this one.

well I don’t know the answer either, but I think one area you could make a dent in is perhaps literature? Instead of having them write simple book reports and research papers, make the kids decide what the book is trying to say, and whether or not they agree with it and more importantly WHY they do or don’t agree with it. Same goes for high school, instead of just aping the sources they have, make them analize some of it on their own, maybe citing a few sources to help back up their argument, but require the text itself to be the main source. My point is that regardless of the fact that kids hate it when you do it, then need to be forced to think instead of just regurgitate facts. I realize that in subjects like math and basic sciences, it’s not really possible, but for the “liberal art” type subjects, a lot more could be done. Like in history, maybe give them several accounts of a particular event with different view points and biases, and require them to come up with a conclusion of their own, and perhaps even write their own account of the event?

I think one problem is the fact that the curriculum is dumbed down to make it possible for even the dullest children to make a B with minimal effort. Nobody wants to damage their poor self-esteem, and that’s fine and all, but when you’re sacrificing the education of 80% of the students for the other 20%, I think there’s something dreadfully wrong with the system.

.

And you base this on your experience, which by your own admission is limited to an era and a geographical location?
But let’s admit for the sake of argument that you are right. My optimism tells me that it would be because they still have hope and convictions that the world can be a better place.
According to you, one changes from liberal to conservative later on because of worries for future generations??? You’ve got to be kidding: worrying for future generations is precisely what would drive anyone with a sane mind from supporting the current agenda. Let’s see what its legacy will be: America at odds with more than half of the world, a spiraling deficit, a gutted environment, jobs available only in Bombay or Eastern Europe, to name only a few… Yep, you’re right, I am going to change my mind and support all those things so my 15-yr old son can enjoy the benefits and thank me for them. :boggle:

That’s right: let’s equate ALL “liberals” with the handful of wackos that burn cars and break windows at WTO meets. Oh yeah, and dont forget: all who dare criticize are also antipatriotic, troops-hating commies.
No, Weeks, I think it is the current crop of hardcore conservatives who THINK we are all still children and believe in Santa Claus (or the State of the Union Address, which is pretty similar).

I think I was pretty solidly “right of center” when I entered college, fresh out of high schoolI had conservative instructors whom I liked, and liberal ones whom I liked, and liberal ones who were a little hard to take. :slight_smile:

Your opinion? It’s not an opinion. He does.

Does he pretend otherwise? Who would argue with those who’re on one’s own side?

Well it’s kinda hard to say anything about bloom arguing with youngsters as there’s not many here and even fewer who actually bother getting involved in these stupid political threads.

It’s funny, my dad say’s I’m very liberal-minded and yet most liberals throw me in the conservative camp. If you ask me, I’m just cyincal and nothing more. :roll:

Uh, Glauber, Winston Churchill preceded me on this one with his old line about being liberal at 20 and conservative by 40. Yeah, I base my experience on having done those things: had kids, owned property, lots of neighborhood council work and wanting my kids to have something at least resembling the society I grew up in. You and I may both want the same things for our children. And based on your somewhat inflammatory response, I guess you are just sure I am a raving conservative about everything (see signature). My experience in all of these activities has left me fairly moderate, in fact, just not to you.

As for your points: “America at odds with more than half of the world, a spiraling deficit, a gutted environment, jobs available only in Bombay or Eastern Europe, to name only a few…”

The at odds may or may not be true, and its not a problem to me because half of the world does not care if we sink or swim. Not so sure about the spiraling deficit, though it would seem so. Our environment is NOT gutted, that is is just complete hyperbole (hyperbole is the hallmark of Leftist rhetoric). And I agree with you about out-sourcing, but frankly, its the illegals that are taking away more jobs and squeezing the middleclass thin, more than outsourcing (including the impossibility of my teenager getting even a summer job). Since most Dems supported NAFTA and GATT anyway, I don’t see that your candiates will change outsourcing one bit, despite their rhetoric.

And I am NOT lumping all liberals into WTO rioting, it was an example of extreme dedication. But who canvasses at my door with political petitions etc. and peoples the various demonstrations? Young folks who are very committed to a certain ideology. I am not saying its a bad thing, I am disagreeing with Bloomfield that it might be singular to see a young person with their mind made up.

And Walden, your are right of course about not arguing with someone you agree with, but Bloomfield has not shown his “worry” that they are premature ideologues, is my point.

I submit that those who are conservative are also people who think…and who have arrived at a totally different conclusion than those who are “liberal” (many of whom are only parroting what THEY’VE been taught). It’s a liberal fallacy to assume that if others would only “think” and “have an open mind,” they would naturally arrive at the same conclusion as oneself. I have yet to meet a “liberal” who had an open mind toward the conservative viewpoint, so what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Redwolf

The belief that people who don’t buy your worldview must not be thinking seems to be a conceit peculiar to the left; it seems they are unable to accept the idea that a thoughtful person, aware of all the facts of the case, might draw a different conclusion seems to evade them.

Admittedly, the far right has it own set of insults to throw at those who disagree with them (my thumbnail impression is the left insults your intelligence and honesty, while the right insults your moral fiber and honesty) but I find it rather counterproductive in either case - “if you can’t bring someone to agree with you - insult them” doesn’t seem to be a good way to build a consensus.

Given that reporters, as a group, are much more likely to self-identify as Democrats than Republicans it’s hard to deny that the media as a whole leans somewhat left of center. But the complaints of both sides are correct, in a way: they are to the right of much of the left, and are to the left of most of the right.

But the real divide between the two extremes seems to be that neither one quite understands, at a gut level, that their opponents really don’t care about their own core values. Outside of the religious right, most of us don’t spend much time thinking about God, nor do we measure our actions against a religious standard. Nor do most of us, outside of the left, believe that private ownership, capitalism, and the freedom to fail (as an incentive to, instead, succeed) are a bad thing. And arguments that depend upon a shared understanding of your own core values will be utterly unconvincing to those who don’t share them.

As a rationalistic, capitalistic, small-l-libertarian sort of guy I often find myself in this sort of situation: I know what I believe, and I can tell you why I believe it. And you can do the same for me. But as long as we are arguing from different premises, we’re really not talking about the same thing - in most cases it’s not the quality of the other’s reasoning, but the foundation upon which which it rests, that we find unconvincing.

In light of all that, I’ll shut up now - I think I’ve gone over the limit on political posts, lately. Best to all of you -

Dana

I resent you guys trying to stuff me in a box like this. And what is this talking about “sides”? I don’t care about your conception of sides, and I am much more interested in how people reason and why, than aligning myself with one political camp or another.

Redwolf,
I submit that I was trying to be funny (obviously, I must reconsider my career as a comedian, but I thought the emoticon was a clue…).
Parroting is not the sole province of “liberals”, judging by the heartland reactions to the last State of theUnion Address.
When it comes to fallacies, please grant me the right to chuckle: the last three years have been almost entirely based in fallacy. And it doesn’t matter what kind and how many spins you put on it, sometimes facts are just that.
I don’t consider myself a liberal (sometimes I am less, sometimes more), but show me a conservative viewpoint that makes sense and I won’t discount it out of hand just because it is conservative.

Liberalism flows significantly, but not entirely, from intellectual
and moral elitism. The idea is that we, a certain bunch
which defines itself by subscribing to a certain menu
of views, are smarter and more caring than those
who disagree. It’s natural that highly educated people,
who are competing to be smarter than other highly
educated people, won’t want to be grouped with
their intellectual inferiors. Ergo there is a great deal
of liberalism among intellectual elites, which means
highly educated people.

Because it’s driven by elitism, which involves the
conviction that there are no arguments worth
considering on the other side,
liberalism has a tendency not to reality test
and people often subscribe to views because
otherwise they’ll be ranked among the dodos.
As I’ve moved about, I found people’s political
and social views becoming odder as I moved to
better universities; by the time I got to Harvard
and MIT, people were virtually psycho. If one is
detemined to define oneself as smarter than
everybody else, one must hold remarkable views
on important issues. As ordinary folks have scouted
out the sane positions, little remains but to
hold bizarre views, easy enough to do
if one routinely dismisses the other side
as stupid and corrupt.

This egoism goes some distance toward explaining
the great attraction of Marxism for intellectuals.
The intellectual, through sheer brilliance
and penetrating insight, discerns the laws of history
which enables him to lead the working class
to the new millenium. Way cool!

I think this helps explain why university faculty
are mostly left-wing, and also why the political
track record of intellectuals in the last century
was so very poor. Of course it hardly follows that
liberal positions are mistaken–these must be
judged on their merits. Or that liberals never
see the truth on some issue better than anybody else.

If I may zig to the hiring thing, a true story:
a senior colleague of mine, a woman philosopher of
considerable accomplishment, was retiring.
The last person we interviewed to take her place
was a woman, a feminist philosopher of science.
We asked all sorts of questions; she seemed not bad
to me. Two of my male colleagues are feminist philosophers,
so the Chair asked them what they thought of her.

‘Dreadful! The worst!’ they exclaimed. ‘She doesn’t know
feminism, she doesn’t know philosophy of science!’
‘Very well,’ the Chair said. ‘To whom shall we offer the job?’

‘Her! Her!’ they said. ‘We need to hire a woman. It doesn’t
matter that she’s incompetent.’

We almost hired her. I wouldn’t have been able to stop them,
and the Chair was also a feminist. What saved us
was my retiring colleague; she argued that she wanted
to be replaced by somebody good at philosophy,
somebody who could contribute to the intellectual
life of the university. They listened to her; she was,
after all, a woman.

By the way, Wombat, respect for arguments, the idea
that we grade for the ability to clearly present and
then support a view, whatever it is, doesn’t necessarily
extend beyond philosophy departments. Certainly
there are people in American universities who think the goal
of education is political transformation, and that
there are no objective standards: what matters
is results. Best

Good morning!

It is one of the flaws in modern English that “liberal” has vastly different meanings, even in the context of education. There’s the Liberal Left, which is the bias I refer to in education. Then there’s the idea of liberal education, designed to give students a well rounded education. I do not intend to take issue with the latter, rather I support it, with the only caveat that I believe career education should take priority when time is at a premium. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to study that which does not get them a job.

I completely share your annoyance with those who want to change how people believe and think. And I really do not find that having a moral relativist / economic socialist for a professor is a problem in and of itself. I see a problem when the said professor decides to become openly hostile, both in grading and in classroom discussions. This has happened. Not every left-wing professor does this, in fact most do not, but those that do should be identified and confronted for it.

As to those who seem to have their minds made up at earlier ages, there’s a few things I could say. First off, these people vote. Wouldn’t it be best if they went into that booth knowing exactly for whom and why they were voting? Secondly, I surmise that the problem you are seeing is actually a problem of closed-mindedness rather than the fact that they take a position. Taking a position and being able to stand in defense of it is not the same thing as having a closed mind.

There are two kinds of people that come to our C.R. meetings. One group consists of those whose parents were Republican, so they just followed suit. They come for the pizza, and if asked, they probably couldn’t name all the US presidents since WW2. Then there are those with a genuine interest in politics. They listen to what is said by their professors, by the leftist student groups on campus, and they read news of all biases. They listen carefully to all of this, they are not afraid to take issue with certain policies of our President. Through this process they refine, clarify, modify, and strengthen their own opinions, and when they hear an argument that they can’t find a flaw in, they believe it. The people in the second category also encourage those in the first category to give it more serious thought.

I promise you, Bloom, that if I ever hear an argument that successfully changes my philosophy from the right to the left, you will be the first to know about it!

All the best,

ants

Sorry if I misinterpreted your intention. The sentiment (that conservatives would be liberals if they would only throw off their conditioning and actually THINK) is one that I see thrown around every day (this being an excessively liberal community)…on bumper stickers, in our local paper, in my daughter’s classroom, even in my church…so it rankles. In my particular case, I’ve had it thrown at me again and again recently over a crisis in our church community, so I am, perhaps, hyper-sensitive. Pax?

Redwolf

Although I don’t agree with you, I’ve wondered why the left doesn’t apply the same reasoning to defend liberal media bias, ie, the reporters are covering politics and politicians day in and day out and have decided based on this experience to vote Democrat, therefore the tendency of reporters to vote Democrat does not reflect underlying bias but rather insight based on close observation. As an example, an informal poll of reporters following GW Bush in the 2000 campaign showed that the majority eventually voted for Gore - does this mean that the media is biased, or does it mean based on close observation of Bush that Gore was a better candidate?

I have also read the opinion that liberals are more likely to seek academic careers due to the relative safety and stability of academics matching their pre-existing political and social tendencies. Speaking broadly, the liberal academics are less likely to be risk-takers and entrepeneurs therefore migrate towards careers that are “safe”. Once someone has tenure or has been in the school system for a while they are pretty much set. Teachers often comment they want to be treated and compensated as “professionals” like physicians and lawyers yet tend to resist the competition and risk-taking that other “professionals” face. This is not a slam on teachers and I’m sure there are numerous exceptions, what I’m saying is that people who are already tending liberal and socialist are attracted to certain careers, one of which is academia.

Absolutely! :slight_smile:

I’m a little teapot, short and stout.
Here is my handle; here is my spout.
When I get all steamed up, then I shout,
“Tip me over and pour me out!”