OT: New Hybrid Auto (one non-OT remark included)

Whistle
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(Whistle-related comment down near the end, if the rest bores you.)

Some of you may remember that my car was stolen a couple of months ago. . .

Having waited over a month for our insurance company to settle with us on our stolen Civic, and all the while having to pay a portion of the rental car we were driving in its stead, my wife and I went ahead and bought a new car, anyway. (Insurance co. finally called yesterday – after what, 60-some days? – with the settlement offer, but require more forms to be filled out first. Argh.)

So, we now have a Honda Civic Hybrid, in some sort of blue-ish/silvery color (Arctic Blue or Silver Ice or some such silly name). Pretty neat, really. Drives like a Civic sedan should, which is to say it’s not going to blow away anyone’s sporty car on the straightaways. But you don’t have to give up much, if anything, to have the hybrid as opposed to the gas-only version. We got the SULEV version (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle), as opposed to the ULEV (figure it out).

Trade-offs from the gas version:

–A tiny bit less trunk space, and the rear seatbacks do not fold forward to increase carrying capacity as in the regular version. The battery pack is located behind the rear seatback, making the folding bit impractical.

–Less power. Really only noticeable when you slam on the accelerator when the engine load is high, like going uphill. Merging onto the freeway is absolutely fine, and acceleration acceptably quick. But step hard on the gas when trying to
pass someone while driving up a grade, and you can watch your battery charge fall rapidly while only slowly accelerating. Clearly, though, this car was designed precisely not to be driven in this manner, since its mandate is “fuel efficiency first”.

–Price. Cost a couple grand more than the regular Civic. However, it does come fully loaded (CD player standard, A/C, climate control, keyless entry, etc.), presumably to attract buyers. The only option we wanted was floor mats, which I bought on the web and installed myself: cost me about $70 with shipping, whereas the dealer wanted like $160. Lordy . . .

–Size. All these damned Hummers and other mega-SUVs driving around Marin (land of the ostensibly eco-aware) are like monsters out to eat the smaller guys. I hate them. No offense to those who have such vehicles because they need them; it’s just the solitary driver talking on a cell phone while swerving erratically on the way to get a latte that burns me up. (Here, let me climb down off of this high horse. . . there.)

Benefits:

–We’re currently getting about 44 mpg on average, while the car’s still breaking in. Got almost 500 miles on the first tank of gas, before refueling (low fuel indicator came on, and the 11-point-something gallon fuel tank took about 9.25 gallons to fill). Nice to stop so infrequently for gas.

–Styling. Looks cooler than standard Civic: nifty wee spoiler, front air dams, alloy wheels, slightly different underbody panels, all specific to the Hybrid. Apparently all there in the name of making the car more slippery and efficient, but also distinctive.

–Changes your driving style (mine, anyway) for the better. You get into the fuel-efficiency game, and get a little less aggressive, a little more Buddhist in your driving. Suddenly a couple extra minutes on the road seems okay when you see your real-time MPG display telling you you’re getting 80 mpg at the moment. (When driving at a steady speed downhill, not only do you get to watch your charge indicator fill up, but your mileage can start reading 120 mpg, which is fun to see.) I feel a little less stressed about going fast. Much more relaxing, for me.

–You get to feel all good about not polluting as much as most other cars are. And since the gas engine shuts off entirely at stops, you don’t breathe in as much of your own exhaust. It’s sort of eerie, though, the silence and absolute
stillness that descends when you come to a stop. Amazing how smoothly and quickly the engine comes back to life when you’re ready to go, too. {WHISTLE-RELATED: The complete silence makes whistling at red lights and during traffic jams a delight! No engine noise at all! Oh, and the sound system is quite nice, so it’s great to listen to trad CDs while driving.}

So, that’s the initial report. Hope it all holds up for the next few years.

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Sincere thanks, Herbivore! I drove the Toyota version, the Prius, two years ago and loved it, but Tyghre didn’t fit in it at all so we decided against it. A few months back we traded in our little Subaru Impreza for a bigger Forester, on the understanding that I WAS GETTING MY HYBRID !@#$% before the year was out. The Honda was our decision, we’re just waiting for autumn…

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I started looking into the Prius. I don’t mind spending a little more in favor of something more environmentally correct, but my impression was that the difference was more than a couple of grand. I think that is when your point of reference is a top of the line model. If you’re looking at entry models, the difference is greater. Still well worth it if you can afford the extra investment, though. Especially at a time when the Hummer is the fastest selling vehicle in its category (driven, no doubt, by people who wave the flag and are REAL patriots).

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(driven, no doubt, by people who wave the flag and are REAL patriots).

LOL.

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Oh, yes, should’ve mentioned: the price is a little less than two thousand dollars more than a comparably-equipped Civic model.

We tested both the Prius and the Civic, and the Civic was the clear winner for us. They cost about the same (here in the Bay Area, anyway), but the Honda comes much better equipped for the same price. The Prius looks sort of weird, whereas the Honda looks like a regular car (with some nice added designer bits). The display in the Prius, centrally mounted in the dash, was uncomfortable to look at and very distracting (like a video game), whereas the instruments in the Civic are mounted in front of the driver and look pretty much like normal instruments. The tires on the Prius transferred every little bump into the car, for a rough ride, whereas the Civic rides very smoothly; maybe the tire compound on the Prius needs rethinking. The sound system in the Civic was superior, too, in the models we tested.

One other thing took getting used to in the Civic: the automatic version has no gears. Or rather, it has infinite gears. It has a Continuously Variable Transmission, which is essentially a belt mounted between two cones, so that the belt slides back and forth over the cones to find the appropriate ratio for a given speed. It’s like driving a golf cart, a completely smooth and shift-free acceleration. At first, we kept waiting for the little bumps you get when a car shifts. We’re used to it now, but it was sort of eerie at the beginning.

Since we drove the Prius first, we were very discouraged, thinking that buying a hybrid meant driving a strange-looking, slightly uncomfortable car. We were very pleasantly surprised by the Civic. Make no mistake, it’s just a sedan, not a spacecraft, but that’s just what we needed, so we’re happy with the choice (though we’d be even happier if they were giving them away for free. Alas…).

–Aaron

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I think they just totally redesigned the Prius for 2004. Did you test the new one or the one that has been available until now?
P.

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I just zipped to the Toyota website; looks like we’d have tested the 2003 model, since the 2004 won’t be available until this autumn. However, I still don’t like the styling on the version shown on the website; it looks like they were aiming for futuristic, and hit upon something that looks like a toy (to my eye). Still has that tall, narrow profile and bubbly driving compartment. I wonder, too, if they’ll offer the Prius more fully loaded than they did this year; although the Civic and Prius were priced comparably, the Prius would have cost considerably more if we’d outfitted it with options that came standard on the Civic (CD player, side airbags, cruise control, etc., all cost extra on Prius, but were included in the Civic).

This review (http://www.epinions.com/content_75676487300) I just found pretty much echoes my experience driving both cars; the last lines sum it up pretty well, “The Civic Hybrid is a whole generation ahead of the Prius. It uses a less extreme, less complex hybrid powertrain to achieve equivalent fuel economy while driving much more like a conventional car. The Prius’s weirdness in every possible way might have its appeal for some, especially those who want everyone to know they are driving something different. And that flat panel display has much entertainment value. But the Civic Hybrid is a much better car, and shows much more clearly where everyday transportation is heading.”

With luck, the new Prius will be better built and offer a better ride, to encourage more people, especially brand-loyal folks, to go the hybrid route. But at the moment, the Civic simply felt substantial, serious, of high quality, whereas the Prius felt flimsy, cheap, and full of compromises. Since novelty for the sake of novelty didn’t interest us, we went for the Civic.

Plus, Click and Clack on NPR rated the Civic much higher than the Prius, and that’s all I needed to know! :wink:

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'Nuff said!!! :slight_smile:

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Yep, those hybrid cars are pretty cool. We had a customer try to trade-in a prius not long ago. Driving it was really cool. Herbivore12 is right about the quietness of it. It is eerie but in a nice way. I wish DaimlerChrysler would come out with such a car for us. I would imagine that at some point in the future Hybrids will be everywhere. Most of the Busses in Atlanta are 0-emission hydrogen.

By the way, Aaron, I am glad to hear that you finished up with your insurance settlement after the theft. Believe me, I know what a pain-in-the-rear that can be.

-Paul

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We test-drove the hybrid Civic a couple of months ago. We were ready to buy it on our way to the dealer, and we really tried to like it. We both found it underpowered to the point of being dangerous in the DC area. (We have to make a lot of evasive meneuvers, unprotected lefts, merges, etc.) It would be to replace my wife’s car, and she only drives about 3000 miles a year, so that’s pretty environmentally friendly as it is. We’re hoping her car will live long enough that we might be able to buy a hybrid Escape.

I am in no way criticizing the Civic, just saying that it didn’t meet our needs. (Just like Generation whistles don’t meet my needs, although my taste in cars is nowhere near as exotic as my taste in whistles.)

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It’s definitely not the right car if your life depends on having instant response to pressing the accelerator to the floor; it’s not meant to be driven that way.

Then again, I thought the slower response was going to be either a problem or annoyance to me, whereas what it’s really done is change my driving style to one more relaxed, less aggressive. It hasn’t been a problem in the notoriously bad traffic in rush-hour here in the Bay Area, or in driving around on congested San Francisco streets.

Having driven on the beltway and around DC, though, I can see your concern. Some scary maneuvers, out there. . .

(Just like Generation whistles don’t meet my needs, although my taste in cars is nowhere near as exotic as my taste in whistles.)

A-ha! Admit it, you’re really just an elitist! What’s the equivalent of a pricey handmade wooden whistle? Maybe a hand-assembled Rolls Royce, or a Bentley?

(You’ll never guess what whistle acompanies me in the car on my commute. Hint: starts with G. . .) :laughing:

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In the words of Daffy Duck: Parry, spin . . . :wink:

I drive an Outback. I just don’t feel safe on wet greasy roads w/o AWD – maybe I’m a little hyper about safety, but spinning my front wheels making a left turn with oncoming 50MPH traffic, which happened to me more often than I’d like to remember, isn’t my idea of fun. Plus my wife was essential hospital personnel before the little one came, and I drove her to work in the snow several times. She drives a 10-year-old Prizm (with fewer than 50K miles, the one we were gonna replace with the Civic). We might be looking at an Element, since we have a carseat-bound kid, for the good back seat access.

I play an Oak and a Clare in the car. I must admit I had a Harper in the car for a few weeks just because I was so excited to have such a fine C whistle that wasn’t wood. :slight_smile:

So, should we gather data? What car’s the equivalent of what whistle?

The Outback would probably be a Susato – strong, mid-priced, workmanlike, functional, but something that some people get excited about while others find it a little odd/silly/distasteful. Prizm would definitely be something like a Walton’s – a Gen (Corolla) wannabe.

The Bentley or Rolls would have to be something like a Copeland low-D or Grinter low-F. Expensive, unusual, but unique.

Maybe one of those land-yacht vehicles would be the equivalent of one of those Paki**ani flutes?

Cheers, Charlie

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You’ve never been in a car with me, obviously :wink:

Congrats on the car – a great choice. And while it may outclass the Prius at the moment, think about how the Prius outclassed the wierd Honda from a little while back (with the covered back wheels).

Me, I drive an old Geo Metro – and I love it! Driving small over here is a kick, and I just laugh at the Hummers (really, talk about airing your inferiority complex). Also, gas costs go at about 4c a mile, and I claim 29c business deduction, so the government actually pays me to drive it!

Kudos and Car-ma to you.

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I appreciate this thread, OT though it is. I’ve been interested in the hybrids and am really pleased to read this info.

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Speaking as one who lives in environmentally-unconscious Texas. . .

A couple of things occur to me. It’s great to read that there are so many people out there who like this sort of first-generation (or second, whatever we’re on) of hybrid vehicles. It is great. In this particular market, though, I think it’s unfortunate that they’re all so tiny. I’m a big person, for one, and a full-sized Accord is pushing it. Also . . . on the roads of East Texas, and West Texas for that matter, a Ford F150 is a small truck. Just taking f=ma and you can’t push a rope, the conservation of momentum tells us that if you’re in a crash with another vehicle (around here, that means a Suburban), you’re done for. All the airbags in Tokyo won’t protect you when three times your own momentum slams into you.

I am glad to see an emerging market for them, but around here . . . wow. There are so few itty-bitty cars that I feel for the people driving them. It looks like they’re doing the skeleton down the freeway.

The other thing is that, despite my usual leanings towards the Democratic side of the political system of these united States, I have to say that I think the governmental policies regarding automobiles and the conservation of natural resources (conceived and birthed in large part by democrats) is absolutely stupid. Instead of demanding that automakers shift a certain percentage of their production towards making efficient gasoline-powered engines, like saying, “By the year 2002 you must have 15% of your fleet running at 60 MPG,” they INSTEAD chose to mandate a proportion of vehicles that would run on alternative fuels.

Stupid stupid stupid, in my opinion. I’m not a chemical engineer, or any kind of engineer (but I do like choo-choos). I refuse to believe that the combined might of American, Japanese, and German engineers, to name a few groups, have maxed out fuel economy. We know that Honda hasn’t: they’re tweaking small engines with VTEC to provide more power out of a couple of litres displacement than ever before . . . so I would think there are strategies to make gasoline-powered engines amazingly clean-burning and efficient.

But there’s no impetus. The market is seemingly driven by two poles. Eco-nuts who want transportation that kisses the environment, and power- or size-nuts who woudl rather have something big (Hummer) or fast (you name it) than something environmentally-friendly.

Ah, well. I think things will get better, and these cars and particularly your support of these cars is what will bring about more offerings in the automotive marketplace.

Stuart

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What we really would have liked, being outdoorsy folks with toys like kayaks and camping gear and bikes, is something like a Subaru Outback or small SUV, powered by a good hybrid or electric motor. Something capable of handling rough roads and carrying a load, while still being a bit more eco-friendly (and a benefit to long term economy, if you consider how precious oil is going to be as stocks keep dwindling). Alas, nothing like that exists yet : I hear some of the American makers may be putting out hybrid SUVs ina few years; hope so.

FWIW, I’m a sizable guy, too (6’1", 235 lbs), and the Civic fits me, though I wouldn’t want it any smaller.

I also wouldn’t want to get hit by a big truck or SUV, in any vehicle. I try to avoid that sort of interaction in general.

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I agree with you, Stuart. The thing that fries my ass about the fuel cells that Bush touts is, in the end they generate as much or possibly more CO2 than gasoline-powered cars. Making hydrogen costs little energy of done from hydrocarbons, or costs a lot of energy if done from water. You’re either making CO2 as a waste product or burning a whole bunch more fuel to get the hydrogen than you’ll ever get back. (Sure, we could do it with “green” methods, but those all have issues of their own, from radioactive waste to depleted salmon populations.) Switching the emissions from the city to the country has its positive side, especially if you’re in the city, but in the long run solves nothing.

My main complaint with the hybrid Civic was a safety issue, due in large part to the prevalence of large trucks, even in the 'burbs of DC. My next-door neighbors have two F-150’s and an Expedition, and I’ve never seen any of them haul one single thing that I couldn’t fit in my Outback, and I’ve damn near never seen them haul anything period. I don’t have a problem with pickup trucks belonging to people who pick things up, but when it’s just for show, I get a little touchy.

I tend to lean Libertarian, so, from a very different point of view from yours, I come to the same conclusion – we need to do something about emissions, mileage, and the general escalation of the mass of vehicles. I personally favor a gas tax akin to those in the rest of the world, but I wouldn’t be averse to changes in fleet mileage standards, either making them all higher, or treating any passenger vehicle, including trucks, the same. Why is there a $3000 gas-guzzler tax on a Mercedes but not on an F-150, Expedition, or Suburban that gets the same mileage? It makes no sense.

Y’know what else we need to do something about? People idling their cars in parking lots. That really raises my blood pressure, not to mention, gives me a sore throat.

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Wouldn’t the Libertarian position be to get the government out of this issue as much as possible and letting market forces take over rather than tinkering with taxes and fees? I’m not Libertarian myself but do support many of their positions - to me they are in many ways what the GOP claims to be but does not follow through on. To me, the Libertarian position would be to drop all the government subsidies and taxes(on alternate fuels as well as traditional) and let the market sort things out.

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Aaron, here’s a question.

Has anyone measured the electromagnetic fields hybrid cars expose their passengers to (magnetic, in particular)? I’ve wondered about that for a long time.

You may remember this was an issue with computer monitors a decade or so ago, and the Swedish developed standards that the rest of the world now follows. Then the whole issue of electromagnetic emissions from computers went away.

Best wishes,
Jerry

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You are absolutely right; I’m not a strict Libertarian (that was the lean part). I think that there are places where the market simply will not correct, or won’t till it’s too late, that are critical. And in the case of environmental issues, that these are within the Federal Government’s duties in the Constitution.