Hi all! While checking out the board this morning, I noticed Zubivka’s new avatar. “BZH” It sparked my intrigue so I did a web search and found a bunch of stuff about Brittany including this site: http://www.bzh.com/identite-bretonne/index.htmlThis particular part of the page talks about the Breton language and its current status. The rest of the site is also very interesting and worth seeing as well. Anyway, here in the States, there is nothing taught in normal schools or really mentioned anywhere in the mainstream regarding Celtic and British Isles languages like Breton, Manx, Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish, Saxon, Asturian, etc. I am in fact ashamed to admit that I have just now learned that Breton is still actively spoken today. :roll:
I know that there are some C&Fers that speak and/or read Gaelic. and possibly Breton - Zoob? Needless to say, This little web-surf inspired by Zubivka’s avatar has piqued my curiosity. I wonder if anyone either speaks or reads or knows any interesting info about any of the current status or history of other Celtic languages. Just wondering… I thought it might be an interesting discussion.
A while ago, when I still had hopes of college, I was going to major in Irish Studies, but I found there are only a handful of schools in the country (United States) that have in-depth courses, and only one or two of them actually cover the Irish language. Everybody told me that the best schools for Irish studies are (duh) in Ireland.
I have some Irish language books here that I bough on impulse, but I find it much harder to learn than Spanish (of which I only know bits and pieces). As with most things here, if I could find a private teacher, I would take lessons. I’d really like to learn to fluently speak Irish before I die, that gives me about a hundred years if I plan correctly.
Kernewek (ancient Cornish) is spoken by several hundred speakers in Cornwall being a revived language; people there now bring up their kids with Kernewek so that they’re bilingual Kernewek/English speakers (it’s similar to Welsh [Cymraig] and almost identical to Breton [Brezoneg]).
Cymraig is spoken by 20% of the Welsh pop. as the primary language - that’s about 1/2 million people. I was in a Welsh-speaking part of Wales last week - they have their own TV channels, papers, etc. It’s fascinating being in the UK, watching TV and seeing “Newyddau” (News) on TV about “Irac” (Iraq).
Saxon or Anglo-Saxon has been dead for c.700 years, though modern English is structured on Anglo-Saxon, and the most oft-used words in English are Anglo-Saxon (eg. the, they, this, that, when, where, a, to, how, with, us, them, we, etc etc etc).
Sadly, Manx (part of the Gaelic, not Brythonic family) died with the last living speaker in 1963. Gaelic langs are/were Irish Gaelige, Scots Gaelic and Manx; Brythonic langs are Welsh, Cornish, Breton. Anglo-Saxon was a Germanic/Teutonic lang and therefore not Celtic.
An excellent course in Irish is a book and set of tapes called “Irish On Your Own” by Éamonn Ó Dónnaill and Deirbhile Ní Churraighín. I received this at Christmas and have been doing fairly well. Good luck,
Ron
Admittedly, I was a little bit confused about some of it, Nano, and you are, of course, absolutely right. That is why I included “British Isles Languages” in the description of what I was talking about.
As for Asturian, N, The only reason I even know of it is because once on Patrick D’Arcy’s old Uilleann Pipe messageboard a guy from Asturies put a post up about Asturian bagpipes. I had never heard of it before so did some looking around on the web and found that it is a region of Spain. They have their own language, culture, music, flag, etc. I presume that it is an old Celtic kingdom. The bagpipes are, after all, the mark of the Celtic people. http://www.asturies.com/asturianu/ I figured somebody here would know something interesting about it.
Yeah, I thought the name ‘Asturian’ had an Iberian ring to it. The Galicians of N.W. Spain were originally a Celtic people, but modern Galician is a Romance language akin to Portuguese. As for Polish Galicia, the name is actually an Austro-Hungarian imposition based on the Ukrainian ‘Halychina’, also related to the Ruthenian ‘halka’, or crow, which is featured on the Galician coat of arms. So, there is no immediate Celtitude (thanks, Zoob) to Polish Galicia, but an accidental similarity in name. BTW, my father’s people came to the U.S. from the easternmost -and Ukrainian- region of that area: the Ruthenian Palatinate.
Just wanted to forestall any misapprehensions about the 2nd Galicia I mentioned.
Just did a quick search. Asturias was originally a Visigothic kingdom, and have their own Romance language --sorta reminds me of Catalan. The Visigoths weren’t Celtic, but that isn’t to say that bagpipes wouldn’t be part of their tradition. Bagpipes in many forms can be found throughout the reaches of what was once the Roman Empire, including Tunisia. Remembering that Galatia (in modern-day Turkey) was a Celtic settlement, I came across an intriguing article in a past National Geographic that dealt with ethnic groups living around the Black Sea. One particular group (whose name I forget) have their own native form of bagpipe which they are reported to love, and are noted by the other groups for the distinction of having the retroflexive “R” in their speech. This “R” is also one of the special characteristics of Irish (called the “slender” R -ubiquitous in American English- in tandem with the “broad” R which is similar to the standard Italian “R”, for example), and I presume in Scots Gaelic as well. Could this group be a remnant of the Galatians of old? Maybe we could get Leonard Nimoy to do another speculative mysteries program on it.
i’ve had good success learning languages generally considered difficult (polish, greek, some chinese, others) but i have to say that every time i try to learn a celtic language i seem to hit a wall. it galls me because, like cranberry, i’ve always yearned to learn ( ) a celtic language. i hear those beautiful songs/airs, i read the evocative irish style of english, and i want to be a part of it, but boom! into the wall. currently i’m working on cornish (except that i’ve developed my sorta own orthography–i spell it cernowec) and i’m having a little more success. paul, that irishpeople site looks promising. i may give that a try. thanks.
The college I’m going to has an Irish Studies program, but not a very large one I don’t think, and I don’t know how good it is. I’ve tried looking up info about it but haven’t found much. While I’m here, I may as well ask: has anyone heard of the Irish Studies program at Rollins College in Florida?
I’m trying to learn Irish too, mostly from a book and tapes set called “Teach Yourself Irish” and online resources. This came up over on Gaelic Crossings not long ago, here’s some links I’ve gotten from that discussion: http://www.flashlang.com/ An online flashcard-type learning program, really good http://www.leyline.org/cra/languages/IrishPeople/ This has over a hundred lessons. It’s set up really well–I love it and have been using it lots
Not so, mon ami - they are the mark of Middle Eastern/Islamic peoples and were brought to Europe by returning Crusaders in Mediaeval times. Today you’ll find them played all over Europe such as Poland, Hungary, Germany, Sweden, Italy, England, etc etc. It’s just that they are most recognised as used by the Celts.
So this would be Lemberg (Lviv/Lvov’) area, to-day western Ukraine?
I’m impressed, not the less by a correct transcription of the Ukrainian transcription of the “soft G” in Halychina…
The South-east of to-day’s Poland is Galicia/Halychina, and the Halychi are a Western Ukrainian people. Btw, the last name “Galitch” is rather common in Ukraine (as with the poet and singer Alexander Galitch).
A theory of growing influence locates now in (Eastern) Galicia the birthplace of all the Slavic culture. The area would also mark the Easternmost border of the greater Celts extension, but the Celts waned as the Slavs appeared…
One could also look into the similarity of the runes, and of the wood carved or sculpted ornaments, in Western Ukraine compared to Irish, which cannot be accounted only by the later influence of the Varegues (Baltic Vikings) over Northern (Kiïv / Kiev) Ukraine.
PS: Sorry, I just junked the BZH avatar, followed by the mast flag from our White City of Gwenrann (Guérande), but somehow this thread tickled my Zaporogue roots–where one plays zubivkas.
Now if you really believed from Monthy Python Frenchmen taunted ferociously, look at this vatar of Zap’s writing to the Sultan Mahmed IV, and here down the conclusion of this great writ of diplomacy…
Zoob, my father’s people were Rusyn, but based in Praha/Prague by the time of the first world war. Whatever village was associated with my roots has been lost to memory, and my surname is too generic to be of any help. However, my paternal grandmother’s maiden name was Oleyar (which my dad used to joke as being a corruption of O’Leary --he did marry a partly Celtish, and proud of it, woman).
actually, if i recall correctly, i believe the region of eastern galicia is believed to be the homeland of all the indo-european peoples. the slavs, then, would be the ones who remained more or less closest to home, while the people who became the celts headed west, followed by the ancestors of the germans, etc. i imagine that’s all an oversimplification, but…
What’s so generic? Tell me in PM if you shy away publicly
Oleyar means “oil-maker” or “oil-merchant” and is a valid surname for western Ukrainian. Doesn’t make sense or form a name in Great-russian.
NB: The O’Leary connection to Oleyar is dublinous. Preliminary studies by Quimiac-Mesquer University here find it a contraption from “holy art”, or “old Lehart”, depending if you bend to the Low or High Breton origin. The “holey arse” early theory got invalidated on the ground Bretons hastily rejected every pleonasm to the sea when invaded by Descartes’ compatriots. Well, I think…
Zubivka, Olejar is indeed west Ukrainian. By Rusyn, I referred to Ruthenian, or Carpatho-Rusyn. I have encountered this confusion before, in particular from those of Great Russian birth. It seems to be a little-known group in some Slavic circles. Ruthenians refer to themselves frequently as Rusyn, and make a definite distinction between that and Russian. I am aware that there have been claims on the part of Russian pundits in the past that there is no difference, but I believe it is the similarity of names that prompts this. In their roots they are related, as both arose out of the Kievan Rus, but they are different. The Rusyn tongue is considered to be a dialect of Ukrainian.
As for my surname, Novak is about as generic as it gets. BTW, aren’t the names Newman and Neumann cognates to it? You are by far the Slavophone on this board, and I defer to your wisdom.
Hey, weren’t we talking about whistles or something?
I had never heard of it before so did some looking around on the web and found that it is a region of Spain. They have their own language, culture, music, flag, etc. I presume that it is an old Celtic kingdom. The bagpipes are, after all, the mark of the Celtic people. 
) a celtic language. i hear those beautiful songs/airs, i read the evocative irish style of english, and i want to be a part of it, but boom! into the wall. currently i’m working on cornish (except that i’ve developed my sorta own orthography–i spell it cernowec) and i’m having a little more success. paul, that irishpeople site looks promising. i may give that a try. thanks.
