OT: Dealing with Rejection --an autobiography

Whistle
1

My chief occupation is publishing articles in philosophy journals. By the time
an article is good enough to send
to a journal it’s practically written
in my own blood. Then it is usually
rejected.

A good philosophy journal publishes maybe
30 articles a year and receives 300;
often it gets more good stuff than
it can publish. An incoming paper
is sent to referees who are strongly
encouraged to err on the side
of rejection.

Reviewing a paper takes between
three and six months. Often
the journal rejects without saying why;
sometimes it sends the referee’s
comments. Often the referee is right;
if so, and the paper is salvageable,
I revise and resubmit to another
journal. Usually it takes years
of rejection to publish a paper. One
of the best things I’ve ever published
was rejected 12 times.

The process is brutal and a lot
of academic philosophers can’t stand
it. Most referees are good, but some are foolish, sometimes snide, sometimes
they seem to deliberately misread
what I write so as to have
an excuse to reject. I get frustrated
and angry, feel wronged, and
my pride is hurt. It’s tempting to
write to the editor and share with him or her my feelings. ‘From the very
first you all have caused me nothing but
misery…’ the letter begins.

I don’t. I’ve learned that there
is nothing I can say that will not
read like wounded vanity, no matter
how just my complaint. Also
I’ve realized that how smart I am
isn’t up to me, but how professional
I am, how classy I am, is. 'Never
out sass 'em when you can outclass ‘em’
is my motto. It’s what you do under
these circumstances that helps define
the quality of person you are.

Usually I say nothing. Sometimes
a response is unavoidable. A rejection came
by email a few months ago. The
referee had misread
my paper pretty egregiously, and
s/he was arrogant about it.
The editor agreed with the referee,
added some confusion of his own,
and said he didn’t see how he
could publish my paper. (This was
the fifth rejection, by the way;
the paper has since been rejected
again.) He asked me to reply immediately
to confirm that I had received the
e mail message.

I hit ‘reply’. I figured I had
maybe 20 seconds before my feelings
engaged, so I wrote rapidly: ‘Thank you
for reviewing my paper, and especially
for sending the comments (including
your own). Kind regards, JS’ and sent
it. An hour later I was asking
my mafia connections about discounts
on contracts on journal editors.
No luck.

Many things well worth doing
involve rejection and criticism
that really hurts. When it comes,
the person who responds not at all,
or with grace, becomes a better
person; the person
who gives in to his feelings looks
like an ass. Even if the feelings
are justified. I’ve lived in
the fire for decades, and a benefit
(along with becoming
much better at what I do) is that
if you call me a ringed-tailed
baboon I will likely answer that you
don’t know the half of it. That’s the
way to deal with the fire. For
what it’s worth. Best

2

Food for thought, if any.

Just a couple questions, though :

  1. Who reads these papers, beside the authors and referees?
  2. No second question. I wanted to know if one can make a living out of these publications, but answering 1) will take care of both.

Edited for a third :confused: question:

Who do you suggest for referees before we get a post (or thread) published here ? :laughing:

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2002-12-30 14:29 ]

3

I guess, I’d better shut up. Peace.

[ This Message was edited by: claudine on 2002-12-30 14:41 ]

4

Jim,
I admire your patience and self control. In our “Jerry Springer” world we are encouraged to act on our emotions and get in peoples’ faces when we feel we’ve been wronged. I have had many experiences in my life that confirm that your way is usually best. The old catching flies with honey rather than vinegar thing. Of course, flies are attracted to BS too. Some metaphors don’t work all the time.
Mike

[ This Message was edited by: burnsbyrne on 2002-12-30 15:04 ]

5

Well, I was asking my questions seriously and in earnest.
I mean, the first and half second. :roll:

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2002-12-30 14:59 ]

6

[ This Message was edited by: C4 on 2002-12-31 20:38 ]

7

Personally, Jim, I’m fascinated. I would LOVE to read something thoughtful and philosophical…and I don’t critique unless I find something really hideous, grammatically. (I proofread a lot better than I write, but I don’t have to do either.) Any chance of reading your paper?

8

Who reads these papers besides the
author and the referees? Good question.

Often i’m afraid the answer is ‘Virtually
nobody.’ One of the reasons I aim for
very good journals that it ups the
probability that my work will be noticed
and read by other philosophers working
on the same problem. There is no
way to make money this way; often
the mailing of manuscripts to
journals costs me plenty–
the point is to add to the sum
of human knowledge. Also to be
respected by other professionals.
If you have an academic post,
you also get not to perish,
and publication can help with
promotions, which means money.

Often the process seems like
an empty exercise, but when you’re
in the midst of it the world
goes away and there is a combination
of agony and bliss. You feel
sometimes like the artic explorer
who, after terrible struggles,
glimpses something beautiful that nobody
has ever seen before. Then you
go back and try to tell people
what you saw.

C4, it’s much much harder to
publish fiction than philosophy. It’s
sort of like wanting to become
a rock star. Talent isn’t enough;
you have to be talented and very
lucky. But of course you mustn’t
tell your son that! People who want
to be writers usually learn how
to write and then use that craft
at something less impossible. Only
the unfortunate few persist.

Tygress, the papers I write are
very technical–it’s a bit like
math. This
last one involves a lot of actual
mathematics, in fact. I know when my
stuff is getting good when I no
longer understand it myself.
But I have over the years published
a couple of pieces in philosophy of
religion (and so on) that
aren’t completely incomprehensible,
and if you send me a snail mail
address (private messages or jstone@
uno.edu), I’ll send you an offprint.
I’m flattered by your interest.

Thanks to all for your kind words! Jim

[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2002-12-30 21:09 ]

9

For what it is worth, Jim, a rambling, if I may…

…In my first life (pre-defense industry), I wrote and attempted to have published, school-choral music - mostly for female (treble) chorus. I wrote so much, and received sooooooo many rejections. The material was performed in this area, but the big guys would not look at it… I was teaching school at the time, and threatened my advanced music theory/composition students that I was going to paper the wall of my classroom (literally) with my form-letter rejection slips. I never did…It would have been amusing, albeit painful.

For whatever reason, a publisher finally published a work of mine, it got on a choral competition list, and an important arranger/writer heard it a zillion times at a choral competition in England, and called me on the phone. After that, my works began to be published…

This is leading somewhere…

As I became more successful, I found that it necessitated finding a way to walk a fine line between prostituting myself to the whims of my editors and the ‘public’, as my editors saw it, and at the same time attempting to write music that allowed me to be proud of the fact that I had created it. I could do it, and did it successfully, under duress. But the line always needed to lean in their direction… And I hated it…I let my writing decrescendo to a trickle… It got to the point that my royalty checks dried up to where they contained not much more money than the price of the stamp needed to send them to me…(At a 10th of a cent per octavo copy, that was still hundreds of copies per month…)

After my hiatus in the defense industry, I returned to teaching, and stopped writing almost completely, and have only written one or two works since 1985.

Since 1989, I get my pleasurable musical outlet through my hammer dulcimers, my whistles, and arranging for, and playing with, my band.

I would truly love to read one of your works,
Jim. I wish you the best with your publishers. Your post brings back such memories.

Happy New Year.
Byll

10

Ah, a writer’s pain. These words we write are written in hearts blood, and then some damn publisher/critic has to go and $HIT on our parade. It’s so nice when you’re swimming in the warm water of peer support, but rejection just plain hurts. I’ve learned something with the publication of my new book, and I don’t take what may feel like an attack personally…what other’s think about me and my work is basically none of my concern, so I shut all the self-flagillation and attacks off, becasue their reaction is none of my damn business. Seriously, you keep hitting the numbers, sending out work, it’ll get published, but day-um, those rejection notices hurt, so collect enough to wallpaper the outhouse, or a padded cell, or better yet, to wipe yer butt because that’s what they’re worth. Don’t give up! You know the whole process is screwed up from the get go!

Waiting for the Mothership…
http://www.notesfromthebadlands.com

[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-12-30 22:04 ]

11

Well, I must have sold my soul to the by-line demon.

A number of years ago, when I was riding my horse and competing very small-time in dressage, I picked up one of my equestrian magazines and thought, “I can do this.” I wrote a query letter, got a provisional go-ahead, wrote the story and snapped photos, and sold the damned thing to HorsePlay magazine. And I did it part time but pretty steadily. I picked up assignments from the Chronicle of the Horse too, until I had reached 70 articles in print. It might have been 71, but my only rejection was well-deserved and I still got a “kill fee” for $50 for my trouble.

It was a blast! There were always good seats and I got to talk to the best riders competing in northeast America, including Olympic team members. (I even got gold medalist Reiner Kilmke to sign his book about training the young horse.)

It really wasn’t magic, because I’d put in my time at the local newspaper and researched my market. I could write a compelling lead (or “lede”) and find the “hook” upon which a good story hangs.

But as a short story writer, my output is unremarkable, unpublished, or just plain unfinished.

If it’s too easy, you just can’t treasure the effort nor appreciate the success.

Keep writing!

M

12

I know how you feel, Jim. Two of my best (physics) papers were rejected multiple times – one, because the result didn’t fit tidily into the then current understanding of things, the other because 3-4 referees dicked around with it so long that others had found more complicated (aka, “elegant”) solutions that actually didn’t describe things as well.

Who reads 'em? I suspect more people read physics journals (just because there are more of us), but I have actually been tempted to list a couple of whistle reviews on my CV. I’ll bet more people read my Busman review in the C&F newsletter than have actually read any paper I’ve written. In 15 years, my papers have been cited around 2-300 times, at least 20% of those by me and coauthors.

13

On 2002-12-30 21:50, Byll wrote:

…

I would truly love to read one of your works,
Jim. I wish you the best with your publishers. Your post brings back such memories.

Happy New Year.
Byll

I have read a few of Jim’s pieces. I can’t pretend to have understood them, but I really enjoyed reading them. Especially the punctuation was hilarious.

:wink:

Jim, I think you are trying to tell us something with your little autobiography, but I am not sure that I want to hear it. :slight_smile:

14

I’m impressed with all of you!
Poetry, music, physics papers,
horseplay, published no less.
And Bloomfield writes essays concerning
international law.

Some people need to do something
really difficult. If I were big
and strong I would climb mountains.

The implicit message is to
chiffandfipplers who are responding
ardently to criticism onboard, to
negative whistle reviews, and so on.
You have my sympathy. Been there,
done that. There is this option–
when it comes, be gracious, be
silent, out class em, even if
they’re dopey, unfair, even if it hurts.
People who can’t do that probably
won’t go on long at what they do.
Remember: The first 30 years are the hardest.

By the way, I have collected
a large file of photos of journal editors
nude with animals. Sometimes when a
paper is rejected I send a note: ‘Have
pictures of you and poodle. Publish my
paper or I’ll show them to everybody!’
If there’s no response I send a
follow-up note: ‘Does the name ‘Fifi’
mean anything to you?’ This actually
helped for several years, until
I was myself photographed at a wild
philosophy department party
at the University of Arizona in
a compromising position with an
aardvark named ‘Monica.’ Rats!
(or better, Aardvarks!) Best, Jim

15

ummm…

16

“Aardvark named Monica”

This would be a nice title for a Hollywood remake of “a fish named Wanda”. Though, this one was rued to animals, and not only goldfish. Yorkshire terriers and lawyers, too.

17

On 2002-12-31 03:49, Zubivka wrote:
“Aardvark named Monica”

This would be a nice title for a Hollywood remake of “a fish named Wanda”. Though, this one was rued to animals, and not only goldfish. Yorkshire terriers and lawyers, too.

Zoob, will you take the “Don’t call me stupid” part in AARDVARK NAMED MONIKA? I’d love to see you swallowing a live aardvark…

18

Senior Seminar Professor walked into class one day and began,
“No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nope, no, no, nah, no, no, no, no, no, not now, no, no, no, no, never, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, definitely not, no, no, no, no, Naaa, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nada, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not at this time, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nope, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, sorry but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not a chance, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nien, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nyet no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no-no-no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, unfortunately no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no chance, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, YES!” He smiled to us all, “Thats a very successfull job hunt!”. It was one of his better 3 minute speeches on real life.

19

Right… Don’t call me stoopid. I’m just–jest?–a motorcyclist, not a West Coast buyker. So I don’t usually gulp live animals, except from occasional oysters. Y’know, it’s a kind of little fish thing from me coast; when you swallow it, or drop lemon juice on it, it screams “Oy!”.

Now Bloom, don’t challenge me : I’m ready to swallow the aardvark (way to quietly enter 1st page of the Guinness Book), or maybe drop a barytone recorder on a yorkshire-terrier, if you commit to publicly take whiffs from under your armpits :laughing:

20

No, no, no, Jim, these publisher people need to know they are messing with your mind! They need that kinda of power! They crave it! They love to make writers grovel otherwise they would never be in publishing in the first place. It’s a power imbalance, I tell you! (Off the deep end…)