Dear all,
[u]Here[/u] I have an excerpt with a tune (I don’t know the name of it…). I would like to know how we can play it, in a whistle, using always vented the 2nd octave D (FP OXX|XXX) ?
This particular music leads me to a more general question that is:
Which pipe techniques or ornaments are not possible with the whistle?
Thank you!
Not possible: Soft and hard bottom D, playing off or on the knee, that back D flippity thing you do with your thumb, regs (of course), drones (of course).
Possible: Stacatto playing (done by tongueing but on whistle that gets pretty horrid unless it’s brief or you’re some kind of marvel), triplets, backstitching (probably tough to do; I haven’t tried), cuts, taps, rolls, cranns of various ilk, ghost D (Eb), finger vibrato…you can do that very piperly meowing “nyah” slide up into Cnat, but it’s not very convincing.
One thing you can do on whistle that you can’t on pipes is to crann the high D, but to do it right IMO, you must overblow, not vent, the hight D.
Personally, I would caution one to play the tune on whistle as whistle, not hoping to pull off a convincing pipes analog, just in case that’s the intention. Whistle is perfectly noble and worthy as it is. Also, may I ask why all high Ds must be vented? I should think one would take advantage of the overblowing option when sensible.
You vent high D to have a simpler passage from and to C natural. It makes also a nice “hard” sounding triplet from B to D. I think crans on high D come very well when vented.
The Creeping Docken: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/9591
Right. Those are practical. But I was asking why the OP wants to vent in all cases (being lazy, it’s something I don’t do, so just asking).
Personal taste, then. I very much dislike them that way, myself.
The only two valid reasons that come to mind:
o The OP intends to play before a fleadh-type adjudication panel that artificially demands that the d be always vented, lest points be deducted.
o The OP’s whistle requires vented d for proper intonation. A design flaw, IMO.
When I first learnt cranns and tried it on a vented high D for the first time, I thought there was something wrong with the whistle. I blow out the windway thinking it might be blocked and tried it again but it still sounded wierd to me. I then tried it on another whistle and it did the same thing. I find it sounds like some sort of flutter rather than 3 distinct articulations of the same note. I didn’t occur to me to try it with an overblown D till a few minutes later. But it is a matter of personal taste and if it works for you then by all means…
Well it might also depend on how you’re doing the cran. I’m not entirely sure of what I’m doing but I think mine isn’t the “standard” approach. When I cran with the top hole closed, I do it in a different way. I think is sounds fine in both cases…
Nano hits the nail on the head, with his specific and detailed analysis.
And with his point about playing the whistle like a whistle.
I don’t play flute any more, but for 30 years I played flute, high whistle, low whistle, and uilleann pipes, and I would play the same tune somewhat differently on each instrument.
It’s not just about what’s possible on each instrument, it’s about what’s idiomatic.
Matt Molloy is often credited with adapting certain uilleann ornaments to the flute. The old-time pre-Molloy-influence flute and whistle players I heard back in the 70’s didn’t do piping-style crans, nor did they do the quasi-staccato BCd triplet that Molloy evidently introduced. It’s cool, going back and listening to the old-time flute and whistle players, and hearing how they used to do things.
Richard
I remember at least a couple of people saying they hated the practice of cranning on flute. One was a fluter himself. I don’t recall his opinion of it on the whistle, but I’m guessing it went there, too, as I remember him being strongly of the opinion that the crann was suited to the pipes and nowhere else, and that one had plenty of other, more melodic alternatives that fit better with the flute’s own unique character; IOW, the flute was fine on its own merits, so leave piperly notions to the pipers. It was early on for me when I encountered this rather hardcore stance, and although I still remained an enthusiastic cranner - mainly because it’s admittedly fun to do - the opinion still opened my eyes to greater possibilities, for at that time I had assumed that cranns and the Bcd triplet (now you tell me 
) were old-as-dirt indelible standard elements, almost requirements, of desirable Irish flute “grammar”. So, thanks to him, I was liberated from that mistaken assumption, but I myself don’t reject emulating piperliness out of hand if it lends something good to the tune. I don’t see the good in wearing only the piperly hat, though: at the end of the day I am playing flute, after all. I think the same applies well to whistle.
I still crann, but I’ve moved away from doing it at every opportunity just because I can.
MTGuru, thank you for identifying me the tune!
I have more tunes (more eleven to be precise) that need to be identified. Can you help me?
Now, regarding my “always vented” question.
As MTGuru stated and stated well, I am asking that because some whistles don’t like the unvented second octave D.
Mostly the problem is when reaching the 2ndD from the 1st octave.
And there are whistles that simply don’t play well in tune that note.
And it seems that the traditional way of playing the second octave D in the vented one. However several whistles play very well both unvented and vented 2nd D.
But there are ornaments that are difficult to do with the vented option, like the so talked cran and the one that I am trying to explain here.
I overcome this teaching my self to:
Although…some times this approach is not very useful or quick….Ohhh, if all whistles where good with the unvented note…pure and without shrills or screeches…
In the tune I am talking about (there are others) there is a passage that we need to make de 2nd D, from the 1st octave, then ornament hiting that 2nd D again. So, with my approach, I need to quickly turn to the unvented 2nd D:
1st hit of the 2ndD:
FE OXX|XXX
2nd Hit of the 2ndD
FE XXX|XXO
FE XXX|XXX
FE XXX|XXO
This passage seems to me unnatural because we need to be very fast to have a good ornament.
I need to put down instantaneity the L1 finger and almost at the same time taping the 2nd D.
If all whistle where always great and good with the unvented fingering this succession becomes simpler because we do not have the L1 extra finger motion:
1st hit of the 2ndD:
FE XXX|XXX
2nd Hit of the 2ndD
FE XXX|XXO
FE XXX|XXX
FE XXX|XXO
For more opinions on the Vented Versus Unvented check this:
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/2nd-octave-1st-note-fingering/73197/1
I started playing whistle with the unvented possibility and worked always well except when I tried to play an alto Susato whistle (this happens to all Susato whistles?). Them I reflect to my self: So that is why the fingering charts for several woodwind instruments tell us to play that note with the vented fingering!
Nevertheless there are other fingering charts that gives us both possibilities (for example this http://fullbodyburn.com/?page_id=108 one). I and several whistle players can confirm this to be correct.
However…If I went to an all Ireland whistle competition, with a ‘hyper-fussy fleadh’, as MTGuru says, IMHO I think they wanted that note played vented… What do you, dear whistlers, think about it?
Now regarding the Whistle vs Flute vs Pipes:
All those are musical instruments. Musical instruments are to do what they are supposed to do: to play, to create ‘musical feeling’. If I play with pipers techniques, or flute techniques or whatever techniques or ornaments, if that fits well and sounds good, I do not see any problem to do that. Even if pick one whistle, and embouchure a tuneholes of that whistle to play a sound with it like on a flute! I think that musical instruments should not to be undeviating with the culture where they are borne. They should be flexible as one way to produce sentimental filling to the player or listener.
Therefore, I do not see any inconvenience to apply Native American or Indian Bansuri or Nay flute techniques/ornaments in the Irish Flute/Whistle “grammar” and vice-versa.
The instrument has the responsibility to enjoy/please/delight the player/listener. Musical instruments should be world instruments to the World.
This is what I think…
I quite agree. But the way your hackles seem to be up, I’m just wondering if you actually, really read my post.
Nonohedron, do not worry about! 
I am talking in a general way, not responding to any one in particular. I am aware of your comments.
My explanation was to clarify any doubts and trying to understand the best way to produce ornaments in a whistle.
Some times I found difficult the conciliation of vented high D versus unvented high D in some ornaments, and the one I am talking about is one example.
I am very sorry if my English grammar leaded to any kind of attack! Is not my intention! 
I tried to make the same ornaments as in “The Creeping Docken” sample, and I thought pipes ornaments were the same for the whistles. It is because of this that I opened this topic.
I can play it better if I unvented the high D. Nevertheless I understand that with practice I reach it with the vented one.
I thought to have a fixed learning way to playing the whistle with correct rules and techniques, but the result is that we need to be as much flexible as possible. There are whistles that work well with the vented high D and others with the unvented one. There are whistles that like Cnat with the standard fingering and others that do not, etc.
ITM seems to have the need, in all instruments involved, to play the ornaments in a similar way. Those blends between pipes and fiddles and flutes or whistles, are needed to the ITM music work and sound well. Hence I think that there are ornaments in all instruments that should be possible for all them. Of course, as you said for the pipes, there are others that are not possible.
Have no worries, RPereira: your English is remarkably good and you show considerable ease with it, and I enjoy your effective use of occasional colloquialisms. As to misunderstanding, any native speaker might have drawn the same question from me (indeed, it has happened before), such is the nature of language. 
I think that it is not only the grammar but typography that suggest one’s mood when posting - and getting bold text is, one would think, intentional - unlike accidentally hitting the CAPS LOCK KEY AND NOT NOTICING FOR A while, and being too lazy to retype it all.
And then there are those (fortunately scarcer than hen’s teeth around these parts) that wonder why that little light is shining from their keyboard and think all text should look like the EULA YOU NEVER READ WHEN YOU INSTALL SOFTWARE. BOY DO I HATE ALL CAPS - WELL EXCEPT FOR HEADLINES SOMETIMES.
Fading to a normal voice to a whisper…
This, of course, counts in English-language internet social communication. Writing extendedly in all caps appears as shouting, and writing extendedly in all bolds appears as being at least table-poundingly emphatic. If one feels reason to use them, best to keep those devices at their briefest when possible, which is usually.
I recall someone telling someone else who was unnecessarily loud to stop using his “caps-lock voice”. Nice.
To be as clear as possible, I should emphasise that I was referring specifically to Matt Molloy’s quasi-staccato Bcd triplet, not to Bcd triplets in general.
The old fluteplayers and whistlers tended to play a legato Bc#d triplet.
Ah, thank you, pancelticpiper.
Love your siggy, BTW.
Nanohedron, thank you very much for your kind words regarding my grammar
Indeed, highwood, typography also suggests one’s mood when posting.
I try to use the writing/typography enhancements as clear as possible. I use bold to emphasize the word or sentence (more than with the underline) and is one ‘easy to find/compile/conclude’ way. The words with uppercase are my “caps lock voice”
Now…Regarding my post…
How do you play [u]this[/u] passage in a whistle (vented high D…please) and the same with pipes?
Are you so kind to explain me with “FE XXX|OOO” notation?
Thank you! 