Just out of curiosity, where did ornamention come from, and why.
Does anybody have a music history background. I don’t want to know how to do it,theres more than enough explanations on all the boards.
Just curious of its history and development.
Any thoughts.
MarkB
“Taw May Muh Hee” and “Neel Shay Na Law”
[ This Message was edited by: MarkB on 2003-02-12 17:40 ]
My personal theory is that it arose from someone having trouble keeping hold of his whistle (maybe after one too many Guinnesses?). “Whoops! Wrong note! I’ll just slap the right finger down quick and hope no one notices. Hey, that sounded cool! I think I’ll call it a ‘cut’!”
Just foolin’ (well, only just!). I believe a lot of it comes from piping, and perhaps from fiddling as well.
It’s also possible some of it comes from vocal music. If you listen to traditional Irish “sean nos” singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques, which is used to add expressiveness to the performance in much the same way a classical singer might use dymamics (such as crescendo/decrescendo).
Redwolf
[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-02-12 17:44 ]
I don’t know, but I’d hazard a guess. I’m a drummer in a pipe band, and the pipers tell me that playing the old wheeze and queeze is like playing a piano with only white keys. Consequently, they play a lot of ornamentation to compensate for the instrument’s limited nature. A six-hole fipple flute would also seem to meet that description.
I have also thought of the wrong note theory and quickly change fingers or whatever and ended up doing a roll of some kind.
MarkB
Good question for the Irish Trad Music Forum http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewforum.php?forum=8&1717
Try this:
http://www.cliffmoses.com/ornaments/ornament.html
It’s a hammered dulcimer site, but the discussion of ornaments gives some history related to fiddle, pipes, etc.
Sarah
Ornamentation is the only way
bagpipes can punctuate a musical
line. Then these people picked
up whistles and played em the
same way. I think that’s where
whistle ornamentation comes
from, anyway.
Bagpipes.
I think Redwolf is onto something with the Guinness remark. Ornamentation is not peculiar to traditional music (I believe Bach is credited with standardizing the notation for grace notes). There’s a saying among orchestral musicians that vibrato (in the strings) can cover a wealth of small mistakes. The same may be said for ornamentation in traditional music, since the fiddlers don’t play with much vibrato. Some of my best rolls are accidental. 
And her remark about sean nos singing, where ornamentation takes the place of harmony, also has some bearing.
Classical music of all kinds is rife and thick with ornamentation, it just happens to be different ornamentation than is used in Irish music.
Classical ornaments tend to be more melodic and less rhythmic; the opposite is of course true in Irish trad.
There are trills, mordents, inverted mordents, tremolos, flattements, gruppetto (turns), graces, subdivisions, and God-knows what-all else.
You can spend a lifetime in the study of classical ornamentation–in fact, some have.
Best,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
If you listen to traditional Irish “sean nos” singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques..
I’ve been wondering about this, and might as well not start a whole new thread.. but what exactly is “sean nos” music? I’ve heard the term alot, but don’t know what it means. (Obviously, or else I wouldn’t be asking…)
Hey Flamman!! Good to see another pipe band drummer here. Side, Tenor or Bass? I’m guessing side from your name.
I am a reformed piper who was able to give up the pipes for … TENOR. What fun!
[ This Message was edited by: cowtime on 2003-02-12 20:14 ]
My theory is that musical ornaments originated at the same time musical awareness did. There has always been a spirit of inventiveness that naturally comes with facility on an instrument. The ‘plain stuff’ gets boring, and the urge to spice it up would come quite naturally.
Ornaments came from musicians…
Just a theory.
On 2003-02-12 17:41, Redwolf wrote:
My personal theory is that it arose from someone having trouble keeping hold of his whistle (maybe after one too many Guinnesses?). “Whoops! Wrong note! I’ll just slap the right finger down quick and hope no one notices. Hey, that sounded cool! I think I’ll call it a ‘cut’!”Just foolin’ (well, only just!). I believe a lot of it comes from piping, and perhaps from fiddling as well.
Redwolf[ This Message was edited by: Redwolf on 2003-02-12 17:44 ]
Some of my best ornamentation comes when I’m about to drop that thing, lol!
Robin
Other forms of Folk Music have ornamentation. It seems that court music has a very structured ornament and further away you get from it the more ornamented music gets. Klezmer and Gypsy music has much ornmentation. Klezmer even has chrips and some very complex ornmanents.
On 2003-02-12 20:10, Soineanta wrote:
If you listen to traditional Irish “sean nos” singing, it makes great use of very similar ornamentation techniques..
I’ve been wondering about this, and might as well not start a whole new thread.. but what exactly is “sean nos” music? I’ve heard the term alot, but don’t know what it means. (Obviously, or else I wouldn’t be asking…)
“Sean nos” means (I believe) “old style.” It’s a traditional form of Irish solo singing that uses melisma and other forms of ornamentation to add color to the tune, rather than harmony or dynamics. Done well, it’s really very lovely.
Redwolf
I don’t know, but always assumed ornamentation was a rhythmic imitation of step dancers’ (hard shoed) rhythms, at least as far as dance music goes. If it’s copying bagpipe music, well, maybe they’re mimicing the dancers’ rhythms???
Tony (Really, I haven’t a clue.)
While the topic of bagpipes is up, I just got Drones and Chanters Vol 2. Wow.
Tin](http://tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/newspage.htm%22%3ETin) Whistle Tunes formerly Clips&Snips
I’ve never made a mistake. Once, I thought I did, but I didn’t.
[ This Message was edited by: TonyHiggins on 2003-02-13 18:35 ]
On 2003-02-12 19:27, peeplj wrote:
Classical music of all kinds is rife and thick with ornamentation, it just happens to be different ornamentation than is used in Irish music…There are trills, mordents, inverted mordents, tremolos, flattements, gruppetto (turns), graces, subdivisions, and God-knows what-all else.
Jim,
I’m quite surprised–shocked even–that you failed to mention the groundbreaking work of Fred Palmer in his Compendium of Little Known and Deservedly Obscure Baroque Ornaments (San Lorenzo, CA: Musica Sacra et Profana, 1976). As Palmer so deftly explains, all of the ornaments in his compendium “are so natural that they can easily be executed by even the beginning performer.” Although space does not permit my reproducing all of the ornaments, or “aggravatements,” as they have come to be called, that he has collected in this remarkable little volume, the following are just too important to omit. I’ve played many of them myself, I might add. Both the examples and the commentary are from Palmer’s historic reference work.
This ornament is commonly found in oboe literature. Beginning players discover it almost immediately.
This ornament is often found in modern editions of eighteenth century music.
This ornament occurs when several instruments play the same written note.
This is one of the oldest and most persistent ornaments in music. It can be traced all the way back to Gregorian Chant where it was known as the “mea culpa.”
This ornament is a favorite with modern performers of baroque music.
I hope these will shed some light on the history and evolution of ornamentation in Irish Traditional Music.
Carol
Carol, you are a treasure!
How could I have forgotten these?
Especially the Mea Culpa…when I played in the recorder consort in college, I did many of those!
Playing music without bar lines where one player has one meter and the rest another taught me many things, including the skill of cursing in about five different languages. 
It was fun though. When everybody’s cookin and the playing is tight, early music has its own unique charm and beauty.
In fact, some of the Renaissance dance tunes remind me sharply of … (drum roll please) … Irish dance music! Who’da thunk it?
Carol, thanks for making me smile on a rainy damp evening when even the stones catch cold.
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
How could I have forgotten these? >
Especially the Mea Culpa…when I played in the recorder consort in college, I did many of those!
I might add that the approximatura is just as common in vocal as instrumental music. The vocal ensembles I was part of were especially fond of that ornament.
Carol