OK Anglo ITM Players, the gloves come off!

Squeezebox & Harmonica
1

Those of you who know me know that I’ve been at squeezeboxing for years, mostly C#/D though I started on B/C-- and finally had to concede defeat with arthritis in the right pinky. I did get some very good suggestions here concerning general lifestyle, diet, and holistic stuff and I do appreciate that.

So I’ve been mulling over the idea of C/G Anglo for a while now and just happened to notice Noel Hill’s school near Cincinatti this summer. Hmmm… I have two friends who had started on their own with videos and books (same as I did on box), and found themselves having to start over when they went to Hill’s camp.

I downloaded “Playing Across the Rows” from Concertina.net, and for the life of me could not make sense of the D scale described there. So I printed out a diagram of the C/G layout and sketched out the scale.

Holy crap! No wonder people are confused and don’t do it Noel’s way unless he (or someone he taught) shows them. The D scale on B/C is nothin’ compared to that.

OK, we all acknowledge Noel Hill for the brilliant player he is-- maybe the best in history. This probably has been asked a bazillion times, but what about players such as Neill Vallely, Edel Fox, John Williams, Michael O’Railligh (or however he spells that)-- no slouches, them. Do they also use this system? Is it possible to play Irish music on the C/G without going to such convoluted lengths that still has the pulse and phrasing to make it sound “right”? Being able to play both common systems of Irish box (I can still do it, but it hurts), I have a reasonable idea of bellows and buttons and changing up alternate fingerings/bellows directions now and then for either musical or logistical reasons-- but this seems pretty twisted. Not arguing with the results of course, but this sure seems to me to be the most complex way possible to play this instrument. I readily admit my ignorance at playing your instrument, but my first hard look at what is really going on w/r/t ITM has my head spinning!


Rick

2

Well, I’m not going to go into details on that one as there are dozens of ways to play the anglo, and as soon as one suggest one way, others come up with different ways and it gets even more confusing for the person who asked the question.

Just to keep it short, I’d say that no, all of the players you listed above don’t follow exactly Noel Hill’s system. A few of them learned from Noel, like Edel Fox, but she has her own tweaks to adapt to her own style of playing.

Basic universal rule: don’t use the same finger to play two different buttons in a row. I think anyone sensible enough can agree on that. If a single finger is doing too much work, you’re doing something wrong (Copyright Edel Fox). From there, well, study the layout and come up with your button choices based on that. Don’t hesitate to use different buttons for the same notes, depending on the phrase you’re playing and to always be able to stick to the universal rule.

Finally, I’d say, LH push D/pull E on the G row is your best friend, treat him well…

3

Hi Rick. Let’s get right to it. If you would really like to tackle the anglo concertina, there is no better way than to take Noel’s class. And it is best if you go in fresh with as few “bad habits” as possible to be unlearned. The charts can appear quite confusing, but with a simple explanation of each Key by Noel, it quickly becomes second-nature. I’m not saying that you won’t struggle that first week; everyone does. But those who make the effort learn a lot, and they are so pleased with the results that they come back year after year. I’m going back for year 14. And each year he challenges me more, and charges up my musical batteries.

BTW, the fingering for D & A are more challenging but it’s amazing how compact the fingering he teaches really is. For some keys the fingering is so simple that you can play whole tunes with just the first two fingers of each hand – and occasionally with just your two index fingers! I should mention that later on you will need your Left pinky for the lower F# in both the keys of G & D (and A for that matter but that comes much later), but you said your problem was with your right hand pinky, so hopefully this will not be a dealbreaker for you.

If you go to the Mid West class I’ll see you there. And if you have any more questions, fire away and I’ll do my best to answer them.

Regards,

Ross Schlabach

4

Thanks Azalin, Ross.

I’d already PM’d Azalin, but this may come up again- and if it already has a thousand times, my apologies. I searched until I got tired of reading and didn’t see this issue addressed- and feel free to point me toward a thread:

Let’s say I come up with an instrument over the next few weeks and make it up to the school in Kentucky. I don’t want to show up knowing absolutely nothing, but I don’t want to waste any time on bad habits or learning fingerings I’ll have to unlearn. What book or video tutor is out there that would start me on the right track-- just scales and a few tunes(that are compatible with what he teaches) that would help me get ready for that week?

(And Ross, what’s with the $50/day usage fee?)

Many thanks,

Rick

5

Hi, everybody.

Rick, being based in Madrid, Spain were there’s no access at all to any concertina teacher - not even another player, as far as I know! - I had to get as many tutorials as possible for to learn by myself.

Mick Bramich’s is a good one if you have no idea about the instrument; I found it very useful. A lot of tunes.

Frank Edgley’s is very good concerning ornamentation & gives you a good idea about playing in octaves. Plenty of beatiful tunes.

Don’t miss the Cd’s for these two.

Niall Vallely’s is very flashy, but a bit dissapointing. Despite the virtuosism of Vallely, you’ve not any chance to see what the f*ck is he doing with is fingers. Another camera’s angle would have, undoubtly, helped a lot more.

Of course, this are only my experince & opinions.

Cheers,

Fer

Edited for grammar :blush:

6

Rick, I have never heard of any $50/day user fee. Here are the only charges for the class and this is pulled straight off our sign-up reminder e-mail from Linda for this year’s class:

“Tuition is $350 and room and board is $400.
The fee for Commuters is $65 and meals are $8.
The charge for a spouse sharing a room is $160 for room and board.”

That’s it, $750 total including food and bed (plus they provide some munchies and drinks during the week), and that’s all it has ever been – changing only for actual costs of lodging/food. Where did you come up with this supposed user fee info? You can see it doesn’t match up with any of the actual charges – not even the commuter (facility) fee.

There is no book that you could start off with, but I think that if you ask Linda Mann after you register, they may be sending out some scales sheets for you to practice on. I don’t know this for fact since I have been going to the school for so long, but check with Linda. Even if I’m wrong, don’t be overly concerned. Noel would actually be delighted to have a new student that he can take from scratch – like I said earlier, with no bad habits. In past years we have had people come with with little or no experience on the concertina, and these folks have had a great learning experience. I sure you can too – even without any outside training. Besides, I have tried many of the tuition books over the years and found most of them a complete bust – except maybe as a source of the sheet music for a tune or two. They are probably better than nothing for someone who has no alternatives, but they cannot ever hope to compare with one-on-one instruction where the instructor can show you how to do something in person and then see what you are doing wrong – to have the ability to correct it on the spot.

Hope to see you at the Mid West class,

Ross Schlabach

7

Many thanks, Ross.

That actually came from the email the person who’s organizing it (Lisa, maybe? I don’t have it on this machine). When I get home today I’ll have another look and make sure I didn’t mis-read something, but I’m certain it mentioned something about a $50/day usage fee, and that struck me as odd.

Rick

8

Noel’s way may seem strange, but consider that there’s no really sane alternative when playing the low end of a D scale on a C/G. The other players you mention don’t really do it much differently.

What really is different about Noel’s system is the principle that you stick as much as possible to doing things one way, and if it’s awkward you practice until it isn’t.

Also, your playing will improve significantly now that the gloves came off.

9

I use pinky of both hands but it’s not necessary. One reason for playing across the rows is to get long phrases all on the pull (in the common keys.) I vary fingering depending on whether I want a legato phrase or a staccato phrase. I played across the rows right from the start. Since I play left hand chords in something like the way a piper uses regulators, I don’t see how you could do this without knowing alternative fingerings for the same note. And if you know them, why not use them?

10

While Noel’s teaching of scales does favor playing across the rows, it is not done to allow for long passages on the pull. Instead, playing across the rows in Noel’s teaching makes each tune more compact – favoring the stronger fingers – and thereby making it more easy to learn to play well. Any long passage done on the pull or the push may require a large gulp of air or collapse of the bellows to its normal position, and “in most cases” you want to avoid this requirement if possible. Keys like A naturally fall to more of the pull notes on the anglo concertina and the challenge there is to find clever opportunities to use alternate push notes to return the bellows to its normal position. For those interested in such things, try this one the Concertina Reel.

Noel has shown me that draw passages can be easier to “control” than similar push ones, but he still tends to favor all things in moderation.

Squeeze on…

Ross Schlabach

11

If only I had thought of that years ago…

12

Rick, maybe by the time I can cough up enough cash for something from Bob, you’ll be proficient enough to teach me. :smiley:

13

That’s pretty optimistic as far as my abilities Casey, but we’ll see! I’m still weighing all this, haven’t decided yet which direction to go.

Bob was slathering fish glue on some bellows when I went by there last week.

14

Just to clarify about one comment. I went to Noel Hill unable to play anything a few years ago. I believed the note on the website saying it’s okay or better to start with Noel with no prior experience. It’s true. Noel started me on the G scale on day 1. While I struggled, a couple of folks in my beginner class had some “along the rows” experience. It was much harder for them. In retrospect, I was better off having had nothing to “un-learn”. A couple of yrs. later, I was a a workshop with Frank Edgely. Frank’s a great teacher, mostly from the “along the rows” tradition. At that time, I hadn’t gotten to alternate fingerings with Noel and couldn’t play the tunes Frank offered at all.

If you’re going to Noel Hill camp as a beginner, it’s probably better to be an absolute beginner.

15

I checked out that link out of curiosity; I’ve long been interested in Noel’s system but haven’t had the opportunity to take lessons. It came as no surprise that I was already playing most of the patterns he recommends; there are only so many possibilities and you can figure out all the algebraic possibilities for yourself in an afternoon. I vary from his preferred pattern in G only around C# and I play a 32 button box with a C# on the draw at the end of the C row, lhs. You could figure all of the principles out for yourself based on the information in Mick Bramich’s book; that’s what I did.

Now for those who fancy a tough assignment, get yourself a Jeffries duet. :moreevil:

16

rick–are you going to stay AT the camp? if you are… then ignore any “fees.” these are for people who go home at night and dont stay at the camp. if you are coming the week and sleeping there, the fee is set in stone at $750–room, board, and tortu… i mean tuition, :laughing: . i will be attending noel’s camp as well–hope to see you there!

i agree with ross… there are no books or videos currently on the market that will prepare you for noel’s camps. they will only teach you things that you will have to unlearn.

you will not find many top players who’s scales make any more sense than noel’s. nowadays just about everyone plays across the rows. when people say “in the row” they dont mean it literally. this is a pet peeve of mine. if you actually play in the rows, you can only play in C and G, and never D. many players DID in fact do this a long time ago. they are far and few now. when modern “in the rows” players play a G scale, for example, many** of them start in the C row and then switch later to the G row. the difference between them and “across the rows” players is not whether or not they play in multiple rows, but WHEN and WHERE they switch. noel’s across the row style is in fact unique, but so are the styles of many top players. so… noel is not unique in that his system is unique.

i have not seen any scale charts personally from any of those you mention besides edel fox’s scales, and it is only one note different than noels, and just as confusing. i have only seen micheál ó raghallaigh’s ornamentation chart, and my recollection was that his ornamentation chart was much more confusing than noel’s (though of course this made it all the more enticing).

that being said… if you want a primer, there are a couple things you could do. you could see if tim clarke is accepting students; he lives in or near cincy. right now, he is listed on the website as the concertina teacher at the riley school of irish music ( http://www.rileyirishmusic.com/modules/content/classes.php ).

the other thing you could do would be talk to me. i am always accepting students, and i am a big proponent of the noel hill style, though tim clarke is equally adept at the intricacies of noel’s system. i do lessons over webcam, and have prepared sheet music and scale sheets ready to go. we could definitely fit in some lessons before camp.

but no matter what, don’t feel bad if you end up going to camp without having any tuition at all. noel has taught many complete beginners and is very accommodating and adaptable.

daiv




**i know this is not all players. for the modern, so-called in the rows style, there are those whose home row is C, and then those whose home row is G. the naming convention of “in the rows” is not because they actually play exclusively in the rows, but because of the cognitive organizational process behind the fingering decisions, namely that of trying to adhere to the most immediately evident scalar patterns on the instrument.

17

Many thanks, Daiv.

A recent development is hand surgery in mid-July, so any camp at all this summer is out, I’m afraid.

Very interesting comments, and I appreciate the insights. We’ll see how it goes after the recovery-- if I’m able to go back to C#/D box eventually that’s most likely what I’d do just to keep from having to start over from scratch. If not, the concertina path is a very enticing one. But thank you for the info and I am filing that away for use later in the year.

–and thanks to everyone for the great info–

Rick

18

sorry to hear about the surgery. hope everything goes well! do some good listening–a couple months off and some good singing along with music can actually make your playing better.