Hello:
I bought one of Allan Mounts flutes. So far I’ve been happy with it. My only problem is that any tune above the second octave E has not been easy to play it consistently. So, I’m looking for sugestions. I’ve tried blowing harder, making my lips smaller, flattening my upper lip, all with mixed results.
Regards,
Luis
Getting a clear, in tune, and focused sound in the second octave is one of the challenges of learning flute. Give yourself some time, it won’t come quickly if you’re new to the instrument.
Blowing harder isn’t the answer – this is a frequent mistake made by people who come to the flute from the whistle. Instead, try to tighten your mouth so you’re blowing a more concentrated stream of air. Once you’ve got the hang of it, you should be able to play the second octave at the same volume as the first octave, or even more quietly if you want to. You don’t want the second octave to be louder, the way it tends to be on the whistle.
You also may want to blow down a bit more into the embouchure hole (changing your blowing angle slightly so you’re blowing just a little more than usual into the hole than across it) in the second octave, especially once you get above G. On most conical-bore flutes, the A and B will be tuned sharp in the second octave. I like that feature, because it means you have to blow more into the embouchure hole on those notes to flatten them, which also helps focus the tone and prevent it from sounding shrill and “fluffy.” Cylindrical-bore flutes, like those made of bamboo, tend to be flat in the upper octave A and B, which makes it more challenging to get a focused sound on those notes.
One good way to help develop your lip muscles for the second octave, which I’ve mentioned here before, is to try some one-handed scales using harmonics. Start with the second octave D and play up to G as you would normally:
oxx xxx
xxx xxo
xxx xoo
xxx ooo
And then go up the rest of the scale with this fingering, tightening your lips and blowing a more concentrated stream of air to produce the harmonics:
xxx xxx
xxx xxo
xxx xoo
xxx ooo
This will take you right up to the third-octave D.
This will be very difficult at first, but once you can do it, try to play the high notes quietly so they’re not loud and shrill. Keep working on that, and your lip muscles will get into fine shape for playing in the second octave, and even the third if you want to venture up there eventually!
[ This Message was edited by: bradhurley on 2003-02-28 10:49 ]
Brad, this just may be the most helpful thing I’ve read on the board in ages. I’m one of those who’s come to the flute through whistling, and I can get a pretty decent sound in the second octave, but have to breathe about twice as often as in the lower octave. The volume is way out of line, and I breathe too often to start with. I’m gonna pick up the flute as soon as I get home. 
Hi Papo,
In additon to Brad’s excellent suggestion, a key concept to understand is that in order to change octaves “it is necessary to introduce some turbulence into the airtstream”, obviously in a more controlled fashion, much like Brad suggested by changing the embrouchure and/or angle of blowing. They also have been the most practical for me. But do experiment on your on. Explore.
Another similiar exercise to the one Brad suggested, is also good for building “muscle memory”:
While keeping in mind the aforementioned:
Blow the lower octave D, and while sustaining the note, try to break into the upper octave D all in one full and sustained breath. (for beginners, lifting the top finger off the hole is okay for this particuliar note)
D xxxxxx —> oxxxxx
(low) (high)
Next, blow the lower octave E and then do the same, try to break into the upper octave E all in one full sustained breath.
E xxxxx0 —> xxxxx0
(low) —> (high)
Work your way up the scale - LOW F# to HIGH F#, LOW G to HIGH G, LOW A to HIGH A, etc.
F# xxxx00 —> xxxx00
(lo) —> (hi)
G xxx000 —> xxx000
(lo) —> (hi)
A xx0000 —> xx0000
(lo) —> (hi)
B x00000 —> x00000
(lo) —> (hi)
C 000000 —> 000000
(lo) —> (hi)
The most important aspect is to “become aware” of how the change in octaves happens thru introducing a change (at the embrouchure/blowhole). I don’t mean intellectuallly analyze it, but intuitively or naturally become aware. Go at it with an attitiude of Discovery, like you are on an Adventure. Get to know your flute.
Eventually, hitting upper octave notes comes with little trepidation or thought.
Above all, be patient and have fun!.
Good luck, - rama
[ This Message was edited by: rama on 2003-02-28 11:59 ]
I use a helpful drill Grey Larsen shares:
Play a low octave G. Then make the jump to the second octave G only by pushing your lips farther out from your face. After you get the transition from low octave to high octave smoothly, continue pushing your lips out even more until you hit the next harmonic. “G” works well as a starting point, but you can move up and down from low G to play the exercise. It is more difficult initially as you move higher in pitch.
There is a natural focus, or narrowing, of the air stream, that occurs in the physical forward movement of your lips. Physical distance of lip movement varied with individual players in a group setting, but results were consistent.
Best, Steve
I did some research in Charles Nicholson’s (1795 - 1837) flute tutor, the father of of ‘the great volume of sound and reediness of timbre’ style. He apparently had a ‘mean set of chops’, or ‘iron lips’.
Here’s his take:
“…the pressure of the flute on the lips must be less, which will produce a slight thickening of the under lip, and consequently give the current of air, or breath, a more elelvated line, acting more horizontally on the uncovered part of the mouth-hole. And here I must observe, strange as it may appear, that because it is the easiest part of the flute, it is generally the most defective, the difficulties of the lower and upper octaves claiming the undivided attention of the generality of flute players. The consequence is a perceptible weakness in tone in the middle octave; therefore let the pupil endeavor to unite the first with the second octave, with an equally ‘clear’ and ‘powerful’ tone…”
He further asserts:
“…by the pressure of the flute being less, the mouth-hole and embrouchure will become proportionably enlarged, and consequently the volume of breath increased, which should be the case to produce a full resonant tone…”
Happy Toots - rama
I did some research in Charles Nicholson’s (1795 - 1837) flute tutor, the father of of ‘the great volume of sound and reediness of timbre’ style. He apparently had a ‘mean set of chops’, or ‘iron lips’.
Here’s his take:
“…the pressure of the flute on the lips must be less, which will produce a slight thickening of the under lip, and consequently give the current of air, or breath, a more elelvated line, acting more horizontally on the uncovered part of the mouth-hole. And here I must observe, strange as it may appear, that because it is the easiest part of the flute, it is generally the most defective, the difficulties of the lower and upper octaves claiming the undivided attention of the generality of flute players. The consequence is a perceptible weakness in tone in the middle octave; therefore let the pupil endeavor to unite the first with the second octave, with an equally ‘clear’ and ‘powerful’ tone…”
He further asserts:
“…by the pressure of the flute being less, the mouth-hole and embrouchure will become proportionably enlarged, and consequently the volume of breath increased, which should be the case to produce a full resonant tone…”
Happy Toots - rama
Some great Irish flute players actually play more quietly in the second octave than the first. This was the standard approach among the older generations of East Galway players, at least according to Jack Coen. And some great younger players do it too: take a listen to Mike McGoldrick playing the New Copperplate (third track on his “Morning Rory” album): he starts out with a loud, commanding tone in the first octave and then quiets down when he hits the second; it’s a lovely touch.
The flute has dynamic range (quiet to loud), and we might as well take advantage of it. I generally play full-throttle, but pulling back a bit occasionally adds great effect.
Sorry for the double post.
If you are still struggling after trying the above suggestions, if possible, have an experienced flute player have a go on the flute just to confirm that it’s solid, and maybe look into getting some lessons.
Hang in there - rama
Brad,
In regards to playing the second octave,
the issue isn’t that the East Galway style is preferred. Rather, I believe it has to do with just simply getting some tone and developing it. After that, it is a matter of personal preference or style. To play with a powerful tone or subdued tone that is the question…
A full, bright, crisp, clear, powerful, gorgeous tone has its own appeal. It can be breathtaking.
A subdued, delicate, quiet, sweet, clear, finished tone has its appeal too. It can make you melt.
In fact, there are more qualities to discover. All are good. Ahhh, The majestic second octave…
regards, rama
Hello:
Thanks for all the suggestions! I printed them out to have them handy while practicing the flute. Do not worry, I’m quite patient and I’ll hang in there .
Again Thanks
Luis
On 2003-02-28 21:58, rama wrote:
Brad,In regards to playing the second octave,
the issue isn’t that the East Galway style is preferred. Rather, I believe it has to do with just simply getting some tone and developing it. After that, it is a matter of personal preference or style. To play with a powerful tone or subdued tone that is the question…A full, bright, crisp, clear, powerful, gorgeous tone has its own appeal. It can be breathtaking.
A subdued, delicate, quiet, sweet, clear, finished tone has its appeal too. It can make you melt.
In fact, there are more qualities to discover. All are good. Ahhh, The majestic second octave…
regards, rama
rama –
I don’t think Brad was saying E. Galway style is preferred, but that playing softer high notes in this style is preferred. A lot of this comes from the older flutes, where pushing the upper octave will drive them sharp, whereas pushing the lower will bring them up to pitch. As I’m sure you know, when playing an older flute, if you drive the upper notes, you will also not only go sharp, but shrill, and the volume level will seem disproportionately loud compared to the lower octave. Now, of course, modern makers have bolstered the lower end, adjusted the intonation, more or less), so this isn’t so much necessary as a preferred sound by some styles, lighter on the higher notes, more push on the low.
I also don’t know that this is limited to Galway playing; a check of most “old geezer” playing seems to verify this tradition.
But I agree with you that dynamics of any sort, at any pitch, used well, are colorful additions to playing and are far more interesting than a one-color approach throughout.
All the best,
Gordon
Hi Gordon,
My previous post was an attempt to “steer away” from “styles” which I feel was being introduced( i.e. East Galway or quietness), and to stay on the subject of getting some tone and developing it (in the second octave).
I hope to continue to do so. But first I would like to address some points from your post.
First off, I play an “old” flute. It is fully capable of a powerful and clear tone, can be driven in the second octave, and still be in tune. (BTW, it took years of practice). Granted, some older flutes may not have that capacity. But then again some “newer” flutes may not either. My point is: “old” doesn’t always equate to being forced to play “quiet” when it comes to flutes. It is not a design flaw of all older flutes nor is it limited to all older flutes. As a side note, some older flutes probally were tampered with at a later point in time, particuliarly enlargement of the embrouchure beyond maximum size, causing the flute to suffer, or I should say, causing the fluteplayer to suffer!
Secondly, as far as “older” players are concerned, I know a couple of older gentleman who simply don’t have the capacity anymore, for one reason or another, to play any other way but with a quiet tone. They can’t play any other way (anymore). It is their limitation; very nice players though. On the other hand, a handful of older players come to mind who are still playing powerfully, with a brilliant second octave and with alot of drive. I gather, at some point due to the aging process, this ability may diminish. But the point I am trying to make is that “old” does not always mean “quiet” when it comes to players or (“taste” for that matter).
Not everything older players do or did is necessarily golden. Some of them were tremendous and others had there limitations. Same is true for current players.
Thirdly, some players, myself included until I developed, simply lack the ability to produce a clear, powerful, and resonant tone in the second octave and are thereby resigned to a quieter tone thru limitation, not by choice. In my case, I know I hid a limitation. I imagine the opposite is also true for those who find playing with a more subdued tone difficult.
It is important to note here that I am making reference to “presence of tone” and not unrefined attempts (loud, shrilly, too sharp, etc. or soft, muted, too flat, etc.) often heard by maturing fluteplayers.
Nicholson addresses these challenges and found it noteworthy. He FIRST hoped the student would: “…endeavor to ‘unite’ the first with the second octave… with an equally ‘clear’ and ‘powerful’ tone…”. BTW, he only had access to “older” flutes. THEN, one could choose to play with a more subdued or more powerfull tone. He actually continues in his tutor on methods to do just excactly that!
One flute I own sounds absolutely incredible in the second octave, the best I ever played to date, when played in a more powerfully, brilliant manner. The notes are strong, sparkle, and renewed my appreciation.
There is a player who plays with power and drive (in the second octave) for every player who is associated with a quieter style. It really is a matter of personal style that develops as one learns to play. But let’s encourage being fundamentally sound.
Happy Toots - rama
All the Best
[ This Message was edited by: rama on 2003-03-02 13:17 ]
rama, I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or I wasn’t being clear). I in no way felt or feel that old players play quietly. First, I wasn’t referring to their age, but non-modern players, players that play in non-modern (past 20 years, say) styles, but within the more regional styles.
Within that, I was saying (and – I won’t speak for Brad, but I studied with Jack Coen) that it was simply upper register notes that were/are played more quietly (“more” is not a set volume, “quieter” is simply as held against the lower note’s volume, whatever that was chosen to be). So, when a tune is played, the upper octave notes are not hit as hard, by focussed breath, as the bottom notes. I never said – or meant to imply – quiet playing.
I also never meant to imply that old flutes, or any flutes, lose clarity or power if they are played less fervently; often – and this, I think was Brad’s point – a bit less power and the note will ring clearer and truer. Often the beginner’s mistake is to blow too hard; the suggestion – particularly on the upper register notes – is too pull back (a bit) and focus the embouchure better.
I suspect that you, with an older flute, or really any conical flute, do this to some degree as well, conciously or not. It is a matter of pitch. Another poster on a separate thread is asking about always playing a bit sharp – this is an embouchure problem. To play in tune, first with yourself and then with others, the embouchure has to be able to control the pitch, on some notes pulling back, on others blasting a bit. Once you’ve gained this control, as you obviously have, you barely notice the difference. But a teacher, like Jack, for eg, will point out to a someone that what he is doing is pulling back a bit on volume on the upper notes.
That’s all, really. It is my belief that this practice comes from playing older flutes (and by older, this starts even with 18th century tranversos, where what I’m saying was advised on many upper notes in order to keep the pitch correct), and well into the 19th century. Jack, BTW, generally plays an early 19th century English flute whose “modern” pitch is questionable at best.
Again, I’m not talking quiet playing versus loud, though those are both used by players when appropriate (more loud, when talking Irish music), I was referring to embouchure control to control pitch. Where this influenced regional styles – a topic I agree is for another thread, another day – is that certain approaches became accepted and sought-after sounds. So, while the blasted low D pulse is a common Irish approach to music (again, I think, originally the result of the “flat” D on most flutes, plus it sounds cool ), the upper register notes often sound better intoned and less strident when not blasted; all a matter of balance, but also an overall sound that defines the playing style.
Hope this was clearer, whether we agree on it or not!
[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-03-02 14:22 ]
Hi Gordon,
Tit for Tat..
My point is that a bit less power isn’t always necessary, believe it or not, particuliarly if one is aspiring to “equanimity between octaves”. It is possible and can be done if one so desires.
I and others, do not NEED to pull back to play the second octave. I think you are talking about a technique of subdueing or diminishing the tone. Maybe some players have to do this all the time (like I did) to reach the second octave because they know no other way, it is habitual, or have a limited instrument, etc.
It is a myth to think that it is the only way.
“Tightening” , “focusing”, “narrowing”, “protruding the jaw”, all lead to the NEED to pull back, use less air, etc. - or - diminish the tone.
Not the proper way to develop a “clear and powerful tone” equal to the first octave.
BTW, there is alot more in the second octave of these types of flutes than you think, if one cares to search for it.
Sorry for the edits, but Gordon , take a look at what kind of flute Papo is playing on…
[ This Message was edited by: rama on 2003-03-02 16:31 ]
Well, I don’t think I said it can’t be done(play loudly in the second octave, without losing pitch) or even that I can’t do it (I can, in fact, and often do, as do many other players, as you pointed out). What I said is that the technique-turned-style started because this was once necessary, then it was perhaps believed necessary and utilized. Now, it is an oft-preferred sound, found in many regional styles. A preferred sound is quite different from what you can and can’t do.
I don’t think we are in quite the disagreement you seem to feel we are, but I’ll let it lie…
All the best, Gordon
Gordon,
No offense, but please read your own posts. I did, and know exactly what you stated and what you did not state. So please, stop now.
peace bro - rama