'Nicholson Improved' on Ebay

Just noticed this in passing - needs work

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=350050417615

Also this came up

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140225726563

The crack looks as if it’s difficult to repair. It’s so wide…the wood must have shrunken considerably. At least the restorer knows the exact embouchure dimensions due to the lip plate. I’d love to play that lady…so please, somebody buy and restore it and sell it to me afterwards. :laughing:

This is almost identical to a flute that I own. See second flute down on this link

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii286/holmesway/ManyFlutescomp.jpg

It’s a very strong player. The thing to do would be to make a new identical head joint and barrel. I could do that, particularly with the opportunity to copy my exsisting one…Mmmmm

Have you got a nice chunk of Cocus and have you worked out replicating the embouchure cut so it would perform as well or better than the original? There certainly are many makers copying the old classics but few seem to be able to get the embouchure details just right, IMO.

No offense to anyone intended, but I doubt the flute will play quite as well as it did back when it was made, regardless of the repair/replacement route taken. Which is certainly not to say that it couldn’t still be a very fine flute indeed once restored. It’s just a shame that we’ll never know how any of these flutes actually played when they were first built and broken in. Perhaps we’d be surprised in some way or another.

Lovely looking flute, thanks for posting the link Mark.


Loren

I’m no flutemaker but is this really difficult? Clay, wax, even blue tack could be used to examine and duplicate the chimney profile.

How many times do we have to have this discussion?

ah, all fingers & toes…probably need a fair sized group

What discussion are you referring to?


Loren

Well, I suppose one could make a clay model of an embouchure in hole that’s in excellent condition (which this one is not), but the model isn’t so useful as it would seem because one still has to use files and/or what ever other hand tools one chooses to do the actual work of arriving at the same specs as the hole one is trying to model. And then there’s the issue of measuring the angles/flares/amount of undercutting and rounding that’s done on the work in progress, in order to compare to the original. I think most non-makers assume an embouchure hole (or even a “regular” tone hole) is just a simple thing, but little differences in angles, undercutting, edge sharpness, etc. on the embouchure hole can make significant differences in how the flute plays. If you don’t believe me, try swapping headjoints from one flute to another, if you have some that are a close and safe fit. You might be surprised to find how much the Headjoint makes a flute what it is.


Loren

I’ve no doubt that it would be tricky to precisely recreate unless perhaps the model was used to cast another embouchure hole:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=48831&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15#640236

(I recognize that some subtleties such as edge sharpness and slight beveling will not be entirely captured).

What makes you think that embouchure hole was cast? It’s extremely unlikely. That appears to be a typical tone hole/embouchure bushing, I used to do about 50 of those a month. They are quite common, but not cast. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done (different cast pieces inserted), but from a production stand point, I’m not aware of anyone who’s doing it. For prototype instruments, easier to just do an embouchure, and if you don’t like it, simply mill away the old embouchure hole, and replace it with a bushing, then recut embouchure however you like. Super easy on a cyclindrical blackwood headjoint, particularly if the original hole is round, like in the picture.

Now an oval bushing on a nitric acid or dyed instrument, or a round bushing on the tapered section of an instrument (tone hole), now that’s a challenge on a completed instrument: How do you get the bushing flush with the finish without out taking off any of the finish? Good fun but a bit nerve wracking, particularly if the customer is standing right over your shoulder. :laughing:

Anyway, if someone can point me to successful, verified cast production embouchure holes for wooden flutes, please let me know, I’d be quite interested to see them!

Loren

The crack wouldn’t be a problem, after you pull the sleeve on the head, it will close right up. The nickolson’s heads are thinned at the emb. hole, as Nicolson liked to lay into it, when he played. With the lip plate the emb. would be very close to the original edge, as it didn’t wear.

The original Prowse that I have here plays much better with our H&Mc head-joint, rather better than the original. I would simply make a new playing head joint that would match this flute not the wood. The wood is not likely to match even if you did have the same species, unless you were particularly lucky. I’d need to get it a lot cheaper than this to want to do it though.

see second flute down;

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii286/holmesway/ManyFlutescomp.jpg

You don’t ever have to have it.

Actually, I didn’t assume it was cast (didn’t know either way). Hasty post on my part. I was trying to point out that if a maker wanted to churn out very similarly performing and repeatable embouchure replicas, even of his own work, or make a modular headjoint, this might be a way of doing it. Cutting may very well be more practical than casting, I dunno, but as you queried, “have you worked out replicating the embouchure cut…?”

I have molded Wyldes emb hole, using blu tac, was a able to to a decent replication. It comes down to just futsing with it until you get it right. The Nickolson’s emb. hole a pretty big hole.

Hmm, It didn’t sell for £999, so now it’s on sale again but this time at £1,375.

Maybe the seller is hoping somebody will make an offer around £1,000?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Nicholson-Improved-Wooden-Flute-by-T-Prowse_W0QQitemZ350055583279QQihZ022QQcategoryZ10183QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ken

No, it is probably reverse psychology, charge more, and they will think it is worth more…

Maybe reverse psyching or some such, but (by Occam’s Razor) I favour a simpler hypothesis: 1st time it was a normal auction with a starting price of £999 which failed to attract any bids, let alone reach any reserve (which obviously we don’t know). This time the vendor has changed strategy, has set up a Buy It Now sale with a price that is what he hopes to achieve/believes the true value is, but as he wants to actually make a sale he’s open to offers, but we don’t know how much less he’d contemplate accepting - my guess would be not much!

So, I’d say it is a change of sales tactics, not reverse psych.

He might have done better tactically to do a new ordinary auction with a much lower starting price but still a reserve in the area he thinks it should reach, since apparently his £999 last time scared off any interest and £1375 isn’t likely to be any less scary!

A question to our restorers: is that flute in it’s current state worth that price?