Hi all, I’m pretty new to the whistle but have played a number of stringed instruments through the years and a little piano. I’m wondering if many whistlers also play the flute, or is this typically a move to the flute, essentially dropping the whistle? To those who play both, what is the strength of one over the other, and do you end up playing one more often than the other? If you had to give up one of them which would you keep, the whistle or the flute, and why?
I’m not sure I have the time and the energy to pick up the flute at this point, especially as I have so far to go on the whistle, but I do love the sound. Any help here would be appreciated. Thanks.
There are many, many threads on this same subject if you care to sort through the archives. It’s generally not an either/or type of thing. It’s a both type of thing.
The whistle is pretty much a gateway drug for other instruments used to play Irish music. Lots of players start on it as a youngster and pick up other instruments, flute for one, as they grow physically and musically. Some may leave the whistle behind but I’d venture that most continue to play the whistle to some degree. It is so darned convenient to have one in the pocket/bag/case that they are nearly ubiquitous. You can walk away from the whistle, stick it in a drawer but always be able to go back to it like you just put it away a hour earlier.
The whistle and the flute are two distinct and different instruments, although they have much in common. What you learn on the whistle is largely transferable to the flute, except that part with the lips. There are style differences on each instrument. The whistle is simple. Really! But it is still tremendously capable and rewarding. The flute is quite hard. Really! It is a tough task master, sometimes demanding, sometimes elusive. But it is generally going to be the more complex and evocative instrument versus the whistle. If you stop playing the flute for a few years and then go back to it you will be able to pick it up again but there will be some days when your lip quivers just as it did when you first started learning it. Best to keep at it.
I play both whistles and flutes - have for many years. I enjoy them both for what they are. The case I travel with usually has a flute and couple whistles in it. I probably spend as much time with one as the other over the course of a year. I might play the flute exclusively one month and the whistle exclusively the next. But in the long run they are both there and get used side by side. I find using whistles for unusual keys more convenient than mastering all the scales on a keyed flute(that’s a personal weakness). The whistles make me giggle and fill me with joy. The flute shakes my soul. I can’t do without either.
I’d say learn on the whistle. Get a fair number of tunes in your hands and head. Once you have sufficient facility to play tunes with others at a good pace you can take up the flute. That way you can keep playing with others and fall back to the whistle on the days when your embouchure just isn’t there. Don’t put the whistle in the drawer.
I was thinking it was probably a both type of thing, like guitar and mandolin can be. And I appreciate your well thought out and introspective advice. And I’ll go through the archives. Frankly I wasn’t even thinking about playing the whistle until a few months ago and I still have a ways to go to get semi-comfortable with that. And it’s not like I need another challenge in my life. But the flute can be so hauntingly beautiful that I suspect that someday I will make the effort to at least try. And in general I have found that a new instrument makes me understand and play music better even if I don’t end up being able to play that instrument all that well. It seems to have a cumulative effect in some way. Maybe in the long run I would have been better off concentrating on only one instrument many years ago, but I’m a long way down the road in my musical path (and every other path, frankly) so I guess I have to invoke those overused axioms “it is what it is” and “I am what I am”. And the whistle is sure a lot easier to put in your pocket than a guitar, which is another reason for my incursion into whistledom. The flute doesn’t appear to be quite as portable. Thanks again.
Feadoggie has it pretty well covered.
I’ll just chime in that because the embouchure is such a steep learning curve, some time getting the fingers in order on the whistle isn’t a bad idea. Then, when you do move to the flute, you’ll be focusing more on the lips than the fingers.
I think I’m something of an anomaly: I don’t play the whistle at all, just flute. I played (classical) flute for a decade or so before starting to learn Irish music on the whistle. When I switched from classical to Irish flute a couple of years later, I still played the whistle, but it faded out at some point. I haven’t even owned a whistle in quite a while. Even though the fingerings are the same, they’re rather different instruments and benefit from different styles of play.
I’ll agree with what others have previously posted. Stick with whistle for a while until you comfortably have some tunes under your belt, then go for it.
If you do, check out flutes by our own Doug Tipple. I don’t own one since I already own a wooden Glenn Schultz flute, but a friend of mine who is a professional musician let me try his and I was blown away with how good it is. Doug’s prices are ridiculously low too. Take a look: http://tippleflutes.com/
I have absolutely no commercial interest in these flutes.
Thanks Tintin, it is the embouchure that has me a little worried. I still make some pretty bad sounds at times on the whistle, although they are diminishing depending on the whistle used. And thanks Paul for the Tipple flute web site. I’ve started reading in there and I’m getting quite an education. BTW Paul I just got one of your whistles from Gene Milligan. It is a D cocobolo and is all the whistle I could want. It makes me sound better than I am and I’m sure I’ll be playing this for years. Hopefully one day I’ll be able to play it as well as, or close to as well as, it was made. Thanks.
I’ll chime in, I played flute (Irish flute) for many years as my main instrument, and during that time didn’t play whistle very much. I would say I was a fluteplayer who dabbled in whistle.
I would say that if you want to learn flute, learn flute, go directly to flute, do not pass GO. I myself don’t understand the notion that if you want to play flute you should first learn to play whistle, or the other oft-heard version, that if you want to play Low Whistle you should start with high whistle.
It reminds me of the woman I know who wanted to learn Gadulka, so she went out and got a fiddle. Now, over 30 years later, she’s a fine fiddler but has yet to learn how to play Gadulka.
About the embouchure, yes, it takes time. But it’s a ‘bio feedback’ thing: practice looking in a mirror, and whatever shape your embouchure is in when you get the loudest purest tone, remember it. It’s a continual process of refining the embouchure to get the most tone out of a particular flute. It’s all about the focus of the airstream, and the precise spot the airstream is directed at, and the angle at which the airstream hits that spot. Everything flows from a focused airstream, volume, purity, resonance, clarity, power, the strength of the low notes, the sweetness of the high notes, the efficiency of the air, everything. Yes you need to wiggle the fingers a bit! But the music mostly comes from the embouchure.
And something that ‘traditional purists’ might take offence to: it’s never a bad thing to take a lesson or two from a ‘classical’ flute teacher. Hear them play? THEY have great focused embouchures and they know how to teach YOU to have one too! You just have to explain up front that you’re interested in playing your wooden thing only, not in the Boehm flute. Most flute teachers I’ve run across over the last 35+ years understand and respect people interested in other sorts of flutes. One hour sitting down with a good ‘classical’ flute teacher will improve your tone more than hundreds of hours tooting on your own.
Since the OP is already learning the whistle, I was thinking a little while (not 30 years!) with that instrument would allow for a bit more of a ‘divide and conquer’ approach to the flute. But you’re probably right–buy now, don’t delay! And I fully agree that a couple of lessons from a classical flute teacher will turbo-boost the learning process.
A Tipple flute is a low-cost way to see if the flute floats yer boat, but be aware the finger stretch is a bit bigger than a conical-bored flute (Tipple flutes are cylindrical). They’re dandy (and Doug’s a great guy), but they’re a little different from a ‘standard’ Irish flute.
If you can scrape together $300-$400, flutes by Dave Copley and Casey Burns come into range, and one of those will have you set for years.
I was thinking along the same lines as Tintin. The OP has already embraced and made a personal investment in the whistle. He has bought a top drawer instrument to boot. No sense in wasting that. Best to maximize that investment in my mind. And best to limit the frustration learning a first wind instrument so they are not put off winds altogether.
I’d advise differently if the OP had not already been deep (judging from buying a Busman whistle from Gene Milligan, of all people) into the whistle. I’d bet buying a Milligan from Milligan is not long off too.
The flute will come in time, I am sure. The Tipple (with lip plate and wedge)is a good first step. I’d also agree with the suggestion of a Copley. And I might also add one of Garry Somer’s flutes as a consideration as a first, high quality, low cost flute option.
Not much to disagree with there except that a three piece, short footed flute fits in most jacket or pants pockets too.
I’m an older guy. I play too many instruments (says the wife). A long time music partner once proclaimed me to be “Jack of all, Master of none”. Life is short. Music is too rich not to experience it as you feel moved. Take the path you feel fills your heart with joy the most. Don’t look back.
Man I’m getting more good advice than I had anticipated. Thank you all. I’m definitely going to look into the wooden flutes, although I was surprised to find out from the Tipple site that PVC is actually a denser material than most other plastics or polymers. His flutes look nice as well and, although they are cylindrical and perhaps a little more difficult to play my hands are at least medium large and I’m hoping that consequently they shouldn’t prove too formidable an obstacle. But the embouchure I fear will be a tough nut, and the advice of a professional lesson or two sounds like the plan to take after a short break in period. I may wait a couple of months but I’m pretty sure I’m going to jump into the flute world. I’m not sure I have 30 years to wait. Frankly I’m not sure if I’m an older guy like Feadoggie, or just an old guy. But I feel young and love the challenge and the delights of making music. Exploring new instruments seems like the right path for me, I’m having fun, and I hope you all are too. Music feeds the soul, and nothing makes me happier than to be playing and have my little grandson dance around me with glee.
A couple more thoughts for you. PVC or CPVC is an ok material to make flutes and whistles. I make both whistles and flutes out of that material. It is cheap. It is very available. You can buy it as plumbing pipe and does not need to be bored. It is rather durable. If it is safe for drinking water plumbing, it should be safe to stick up to your mouth. But there are better materials. Delrin/Acetal is far more durable and resistant to elements, temperature and chemicals than PVC/CPVC. It will hold the edge on the embouchure cut better and longer even considering normal wear and tear. The joints will also hold up better, all things considered.
For what they cost, Doug Tipple’s flutes are a good and sensible first step. If you want to minimize cost and test the waters by sticking your toe in first, that’s the way to go in my book. I have owned two Tipples, an early one and a more recent one. Things you may want to consider. The lip plate adds chimney depth to the embouchure. That’s valuable for a more traditional tone. The Fajardo wedge helps even out the octaves. On a cylindrical bore flute the second octave will tend to be flat otherwise (there are other design tactics that can mitigate some of that though). So go for the wedge. Doug has improved his embouchure cut over time. Try to buy a new flute from Doug to get his best cut. It will help you get to a better tone quicker. If you go with the Tipple, you may want to start off learning to play with a Super Duper EZ grip, formerly known as the “piper’s grip”. It will help you ease the distance across all the holes. But hey, hands vary. I have smallish hands. YMMV.
If you can spend a little bit more, consider a proper conical bore starter flute. And it is not quite like jumping into the deep end of the pool like buying a blackwood flute might be. We’re talking ~$300-$400-ish here. There are many to consider. We’ve mentioned the Copley and the Somers flutes. We should probably also mention the Walt Sweet Shannon flute and the Casey Burns Folk Flute. The conical bore gives you several advantages as you are learning. It shortens the span across the holes. It also helps adjust the octaves and solves the issue that the Fajardo wedge tries to address. And it sounds more like and respond more like a proper wooden flute. All of these are keyless. All are short foot models except the Somers.The Copley, Somers and Sweet Shannon are delrin. That’s tough, durable stuff and should last longer than either of us will. The Burns Folk Flute is wood and would need some extra care. Any of these flutes are designed and made well enough for you to play no matter how well your skills develop. They are that good. They will be easier to learn on, IMO. Second hand purchases of these flutes are fine - if you can find them. These makers offered very good flutes to start with. Nothing else to consider there. The skills you develop on these instruments are directly applicable to any other higher-cost wooden flute you might want to move to later, should you decide to do that. Here are some links.
Oh, and the grandson deserves his own whistle. Right? His parents would love you for that.
Feadoggie
P.S. My experience with embouchure lessons from a classical flutist varies from the others. I’d suggest finding a true “Irish style” player if you want to develop a more traditional sound. But…YMMV.
As a caveat I’ll admit that I’m being guilty of “do what I say, not what I do” because in fact I learned whistle, flute, uilleann pipes, and bodhran simultaneously.
I wouldn’t necessarily recommend that way for others because I’ve encountered people who have trouble with cross-contamination when learning two instruments at the same time (especially Highland and uilleann pipes). I managed, somehow. I was in college and must have had a tremendous amount of spare time! I was also playing Highland pipes at the time, but I’d already been playing those for a few years.
On the other hand I’ve encountered people who do just fine learning multiple instruments simultaneously. One advantage is that you gain insights that you would not if you were just learning one instrument, such as the fairly large amount of shared technique between Irish flute, whistle, and uilleann pipes.
I started looking into another instrument after playing a lot of finger style uke for about a year, mostly classical stuff. I got tendinitis in my right elbow that I still have intermittently. I had played some classical guitar previously and a fair amount of blues fingerstyle with no ill effects but for some reason the small uke got me. I could still strum and sing but even bluegrass style flatpicking would hurt. The only previous wind instrument I had played was harmonica with some small facility but I was a long way from being a virtuoso. I guess I got into the whistle because I thought it would be easy and a diversion while my elbow healed (I assumed it would heal, but as you get older you’re never really sure). Anyway I got stung and now I want to jump in all the way. I am drawing a line at the pipes, however. But I do think I can learn flute and the whistle hand in hand, so to speak, and I appreciate the links to all of the great makers. Like Richard and probably others I’ve been pretty successful and happy in buying previously owned gear so I think I’ll wait and see what comes up on the forum in the near future. I can usually wear off the rack clothes, play off the rack golf clubs, off the rack guitars and mandolins, so I assume an off the rack flute would work. I really wouldn’t know the difference anyway. So if anyone has something they’d like to sell, or have any leads on something along the lines of what you’ve advised me to look at that would be great. A Sweet flute sounds about ideal, but all of the makers recommended seem to be OK. And in doing further research I’ve found that all of them seem to be better than the Dixon flute, even their Delrin model, So I’ll forgo Dixon’s and keep my eye open. Anyway thanks for all of your help. This is a great community here.
You might try going to a festival/gathering - there are usually vendors present (at least there are out here in the east). I found a lot of festivals in Northern California at this site: http://www.sfcelticmusic.com/festivals.htm
There are probably more if you “dig” a bit.
Good luck in your journey!
Pat
P.S. I am one of the “whistle to flute” crowd… Got back to whistle about 7 years ago, tried a low-D, and “graduated” to the flute. I now play a John Gallagher 8-key! The journey to this flute was a bit convoluted, but I’ve got to say that the experience was worth it and the end result (although pretty expensive) was worth all the learning curves on the way!
Have to say I agree with all of this except the term ‘starter flute’ (which I don’t like at all). So, sure, they’re great for starters/beginners, but some might see hints of limitation in the label when they’re also quality instruments you’ll never grow out of and targeted every bit as much at skilled/experienced players. But of course you know this, which just leaves the problem of what we call them. And I’ve really no idea, though ‘inexpensive’, ‘no frills’ or ‘bare-bones’ (none of which I particularly like) all strike me as more appropriate than ‘starter’, with ‘bare-bones quality resin [or wood]’ perhaps closer to the mark. But then who’d say ‘a [proper] bare-bones quality resin or wood conical bore flute’?
Right. I couldn’t agree more. I was trying to describe it as an “inexpensive but good enough for the rest of your life flute” and failed. Should have used another descriptor.
I think what we are trying to get across is that the recommended flutes are all quite a bit more than OK. They’re good flutes - full stop.
I have two of the three piece Dixon delrin flutes here myself (and many more). I may be selling them off shortly. They are one of the flutes I used to recommend as a first flute, particularly for those with smaller hands and fingers. And I believe they are still good for that purpose but they are not the best and easiest flute to start out on. If you had said you have small hands I would have recommended one. I still feel they are good for young players. They have smaller holes and are quieter than the others. They are also less expensive to begin with. My reservation with them these days is that the embouchure is also smallish and requires more focus than the others to get a strong tone. But, and this is big but, if you can come to terms with the embouchure on a Dixon you will have no issue moving on to another flute. They also make a good second flute or travel flute - small, light, indestructable, etc. So are the Copley, Somers, Shannon, and Folk Flute and they are better flutes all around. I still play the Dixon to tighten up my own embouchure - and it doesn’t hurt the ears as much as a fife. ANyway if you stumble across a DIxon don’t dismiss it if the price is right. But it will be a challenge. You could certainly do worse.
Do avoid the cheaper Dixon polymer flutes if you can. While they have improved over time, particularly by adding the lip plate, they are still not anywhere near as useful as a Tipple flute. I’ve got a couple of those Dixons in keys besides D. They work but there’s little to recommend about them really, IMO.
There are other less expensive flutes we could talk about as well. M&E comes to mind for one. All of these will have there supporters. But I think the ones recommended already have a bit of an edge o n the others.
Don’t give up on the whistle. Remember, on the days when your embouchure is not happening with the flute that the whistle can still do the job of playing the music. Have fun.
I was looking around on past posts and saw that the Dixon is a decent flute but not up to the standards of the others. And I definitely won’t give up the whistle. It is too much fun. As to the Nor Cal festivals I see the Scottish Games listed here in Pleasanton, my home town. I’ve never gone so I guess this year will be a first.
And I’m definitely going to get my grandson a whistle. I got him a uke a year ago, and he’s only 18 months now. Frankly he’s probably more suited to drums at the moment. But, believe me, I encourage his noise making in all areas.
There is a Dixon low D whistle in aluminum with a flute head on ebay for $90 buy it now plus shipping currently. I’ve been looking at that and was considering but think I’ll pass at present unless you say otherwise. Thanks.
Yes, that’s precisely what you should avoid. If you can shell out $300-$400, you’ll get a great flute that will serve you well for decades. And buying a good one off the bat is cheaper than buying one for $90 now and one for $300 later…
The Irish Flute Store is a good place to shop, by the way. http://www.irishflutestore.com
