Has anyone else seen this yet?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2366585453&category=10183
Looks like John is now making wooden and conical bore flutes!
Did anyone get a chance to play test one for John?
It looks like we have another wooden beginners flute on the market now.
Eric
Hmm, might just be the photo, but that embouchure hole looks mighty round, not a good sign…
Loren
I’m on Lorens side on this one. I noticed it too. Just never came around posting it till now. But then there are always tools to change the shape.
" but that embouchure hole looks mighty round, not a good
sign… "
Does that mean that all those Rudall & Rose, Pratten etc. flutes were poor instruments? I don’t think so.
" there are always tools to change the shape."
Changing the shape of a round hole (in effect, enlarging it) would serve only to raise the pitch of the entire instrument.
John’s polymer flutes (I have one) are fine instruments and certainly an excellent value for the price. I’m sure the new wooden flute is an even better value.
Dave McRitchie
Toronto, Canada
The point is: Judging by the price of the instrument, John seems to be going for the beginner flute market, and round embouchure cuts in general can be quite difficult to learn on, especially when one is going for the typical “Irish Flute” sound and volume.
Loren
The point should be that the maker tells us its based on a baroque flute, which have small, round embouchure holes, and not an “Irish” flute, a Pratten or Rudall, or even German. The small embouchure is not tricky to play, just different. It will not be a loud flute, although sometimes tonal purity cuts where pure volume doesn’t.
I don’t know whether this particular flute is a good flute or not, but small, round embouchures are not necessarily bad things. I agree with Loren, though, it’s misleading, what with the Irish tune sample – if you’re buying such a flute expecting something more Prattenish, you will be disappointed…
Gordon
I cannot understand what all the fuss is about its only a hole!!!
Its not the shape of the hole that matters but the person on the other end. A beginner will sound crap no matter what flute they play on. A good player will have the skill to bring out the best in any flute regardless of the shape of the hole .
I agree will the comments made by dave and gordon. I would also like to add that Irish music was originally played on flutes of this kind long before the invention of the classical flute and the oval hole. So what is the authentic irish sound??? There are also flutes with square type holes (german). Does this mean that we should not play irish music on these flutes???I personally think that it is wrong to assume that there is only one type of flute that you can play irish music on. Or that there is one hole to rule them all.
before making this flute I did a lot of research measuring dozens of different flutes. I also did research at birmingham conservatiore on baroque flutes. I feel that i have been sucessful in producing a flute that will produce a more natural sound due to the absence of a brass liner. What also helps to produce the sound i want is the round hole. More importantly is the fact that i set the cork back about 27mm . This gives the flute lots of power. A beginner can have it set at about 20mm this makes it alot easier to play. I use a similar idea on my whistles. It does work. So the flute is suitable for a beginner or an advanced player.
This type of hole is on my plastic flutes . It is also featured on numerous other makers flutes . So far i have not heard of one complaint that these holes are not suitable for beginners from anyone.
Colin goldie also has one of my flutes with this forbidden hole and he rates it highly as do everyone that has actually tried or played one. He also has kindly agreed to do a review on my new bhoem head irish flute which .yes has a round hole. ( but should we play irish music on a bhoem head irish flute???) would it be original???
anyway I feel a hole lot better now (yuk yuk)
all the best
John
Bit of a contradiction there.
Whoops, I didn’t mean for this thread to start a squabble over embouchure hole design, but it’s funny that on either the woodenflute list or the earlyflute yahoo group this just came up. There was no opinion as to the “best” embouchure cut/design. It seems like a personal thing.
This also reminds me of Terry McGee’s investigation into Gray Larsen’s American flute with small tone holes, etc., which is well worth the read on Terry’s web page: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Grey.htm . It ended up being more powerful than Terry thought it would be based upon the apparent design.
Basically, I’d love to try this flute but don’t have the spare cash to buy one right now. Only those who’ve played one really are in a good position to say how it sounds.
I am curious John, how does Birch do as a tonewood? Did you have to do the Tung oil treatment like Ralph Sweet does on his maple?
Eric
I would really like to hear some sound clips of this flute.
John, I really meant no offence, I did not mean to critisise your flute before even hearing one. But most irish style (R&R, Pratten etc.) flutes I’ve seen has got a more oval embouchure. I agree that the thing that really matters is who’s blowing the flute, but I for one got a real irish style flute as a first flute, because irish music was the thing I wanted to play. The embouchure is oval, not completely circular and that is what I prefer after trying some flutes with circular embouchure as well.
The tone you seem to take in defending your work is not really to my liking (I don’t know if this was deliberate), but it really does nothing to improve my first imressions of this whole thing.
just to answer a few queries
jessie…when a maker designs a flute they have a specific voice or tonal quality in mind for the flute . This is not something the player has any control over as they can only bring out the best in a particular flute. There are many factors involved in producing a particular tone including the bore, the amount of under cut on the embouchere hole, the size and shape of the hole, the diameter of the headjoint in relation to the bore, the material the flute is made from, the finish of the bore, size of tone holes and amount of undercut. the distance of the cork from the tone hole , and the choice of material for the cork. wether the headjoint has a liner. etc etc.blah blah blah
This flute has been designed to give a specific tone, appearance and response which i accept will not be to everyones taste. but at least it does give choice . I could quite easily have churned out yet another copy of so and so but I would find that immensly boring and everyone else would be bored so i did not bother I always try to do something new and different and part of that design is the circular hole. I could have given it an oval hole or a square hole but that would change the tonal qualities of the flute.
henke…I have a short sound clip on the item page but I do not think that you will like it.
eric…yes I agree it is a personal choice no one is better than another . I simply requried a circular hole in this particular design of flute to give it the tone that i was looking for. Again my choice of wood was deliberate i choose birch or maple for the same reasons anyway i am bored with ebony. as it all helps to produce the tone I was looking for. Yes the wood is sealed I also lacquer the inside of the bore like on japanese flutes. then I use behandala oil for the finish. These woods are much harder to work with and requre much more preparation than hardwoods.
I design make and play instruments primarily for myself. If other people like them as well I consider that a bonus.
Just would like to take the opportunity to wish you all a happy christmas .Just finished putting the christmas tree up mmmmm could make a flute from that with a round hole
all the best
John
John,
have a merry Christmas, too, and thanks for the information.
It’s funny, while most folks love blackwood, I’m not a fan of it. To me, it looks exactly the same as my Seery Delrin flute, but it’s not indestructible so I like Delrin better. For wood, I prefer something like boxwood, mopane, etc (i.e. - show me the woodgrain 
). I really liked the look of your Birch flute.
I also think it’s cool that you’ve moved into the realm of conical wooden flute. Good luck with sales, and have fun making them!
Eric
eric…
i cannot seem to get fine details like this to show on my photos what do i have to do to achieve this. I am always disappointed with my photos
any advice would be welcome.
all the best
john
John,
I think you misinterpreted my statement. I can see the woodgrain on your Burch flute - it’s blackwood flutes on which I can’t see any grain which is why, IMHO, I’m just as happy with a Delrin flute since it’s equally as dark and grainless as blackwood. I know a lot of folks will scream about the tonal qualities of blackwood, but I swear I hear a lot more of the “tonal” qualities of the player than of the flute material.
Your picture’s are fine. Perhaps a background like a blanket behind the flute might kill the glare, but other than the glare, I can see the woodgrain on the flute fine…and I like the looks of it. Nice clean lines, I like the look of the brass rings on the lighter wood. Good job overall.
Eric
eric
thanks for the blanket tip i will have a go at it over christmas.
all the best
John
John wrote: "More importantly is the fact that i set the cork back about
27mm . This gives the flute lots of power. A beginner can have it set at
about 20mm this makes it alot easier to play. "
This sounds interesting to me. Could you explain that a bit? I always
thought the cork stopper was just to tune the octaves to each other.
I think the sound clip has a nice sound.
Cheers, Lesl
Yes, I know all this.
As I mentioned previously, a contradiction.
You talk rationally now about how dimensions and decisions matter (and they do), but when you first joined this thread, you ranted and raved and said something that wasn’t true, that a decision about the design of the flute doesn’t matter. I’m glad you realize that it does.
John I think you will find that it can get a bit stuffy around here at times. I love it when people comment on flutes they have never played or heard for that matter. My first wooden flute was a Dixon in rosewood. Plenty of people had something to say about it with out the need to play it. I do have a couple of blackwood flutes now and they do sound very different then the rosewood but I still love the sound of the rosewood. (unlined head by the way) I was very happy to see you come up with a wooden flute. My biggest gripe is the lack of choice for that first wood flute. I also get real tired of the purest attitude that somepeople have. I do love Irish trad but that sure isnt the only music I want to play on my flute. And as far as Im concerned Irish trad is folk music and people traditionaly have played it on anything they could get their hands on. Of course the otlher issue with me is price. Someone who wants to try their hand at wooden flute risk a huge cash outlay just to see if it is what they realy want. It is often said that heck if they don`t like it they can sell it. Well maybe but why not have the choice of buying a compatent instrument at a low price, makes sence to me. Anyway thanks for your dedication to us poorer folks who love to make music and you can be sure that when I can afford it one of your wooden flutes will be sitting right here beside me.
ROCK ON JOHN!!
Tom
Okay, for my part, I should have worded my original post differently, this would have been better:
"A word of caution to first time flute buyers, or those not familiar with “Irish Flutes”. This flute is advertised as an “Irish Flute” but the maker says it is based on a Baroque design, which is not typically what most people going for an “Irish” flute sound would buy.
Also, 99% of the wooden flutes on ebay in this price range, particularly those with a round embouchure hole, turn out to be virtually worthless pieces of crap - many here have been burned buying these pieces of trash, we’ve heard it time and again.
Having said that, I have no knowledge of this particular brand of flute, perhaps it could be the (incredibly) rare exception to the rule, so I simply urge the inexperienced buyer to be cautious and make certain there is some sort of reasonable return policy that would allow them to try the flute, and even better, have an experienced player they know and trust have a go at it, for some unbiased advice, before they are totally committed to the purchase."
That would have been a better way for me to express my concerns. Hopefully it will turn out that John makes a very nice flute, at good price, and all will be happy in the end.
Loren
John, as a newcomer to flutes I’m sure I’ll sound crap on your instrument and on any other I play for a while. Since that is obvious, all teh more reason for me to want to know a little bit about a flute before I lay down money for it. I don’t want to be told how I’ll sound now, I know already. I don’t really want to try before I buy; what would that prove?
What I want to know is what I might sound like on your flute once I’ve acquired a bit of skill. I know enough about Irish flutes, and flutes in general, to know what kind of sound I like. I know perfectly well that I will never be able to make absolutely any flute sound like absolutely any other one, and so do you. If I can’t get information about flutes from the kind of probing questions people like, Loren, Jessie and Henke are asking, where am I going to get it?