New to Celtic music, I need some help.

Hi, my name is Andrew, and I’ve a few questions about ‘jamming’ in the celtic tradition, I’m VERY new to Celtic music. I’ve been a gigging musician for 10 years though, except in Rock/Jazz vein.

I’m a bass player (electric and some upright) and I’ve been struggling with trying to find bass lines that ‘fit.’ I don’t seem to hear much for bass in celtic music, so I’m doing a country 1-5 thing, which works, but there has to be something better! Double the melody between modulations? Stick on the root? What are some classic ‘celtic’ sounding fills? D mixolydian seems to work. Sometimes.

Any books, or any other bass players out there willing to share some tips?
I’m also trying to learn penny-whistle, but I’m starting to think that bass players are destined to never play melodies!

Thanks a million guys/gals!

IMHO I think a bass sounds really odd in ITM. You should get one of those little tiny basses (also called a fiddle). :laughing:

Learning tin whistle, now, that’s a top notch idea. Follow through and don’t overlook the Clarke original design.

Melodies on base would be more seen as experimental, not traditional: the stuff of recordings and performance. That’s where the envelope gets pushed. I get the impression that you’ve got some sort of upcoming engagement facing you. Me, I would hold off and spend some time immersing myself in the tradition (sessions, recordings) first. But that’s just me; I don’t care much for hybrids, but of course there’s your audience to consider, too.

There’s a helpful book by Chris Smith, Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists, published by Mel Bay. It covers guitar of various tunings, 'zouk, etc., but I don’t recall if bass is addressed. The principles should apply all the same.

Hasn’t our own chiffy Michael Eskin produced a work with this in mind, too?

check out an older thread, too…
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16931

much of this is tongue-in-cheek, so don’t let it scare you away, but in the comments are some valuable pointers at coming with an experimental instrument, and coming to ITM from a jazz tradition.

Once you develop a feel for the music a bass, while not traditional, can be fun. We had one local guy coming to some sessions with a double bass and some places around Clare you may find Paul O Driscoll turning up [listen to the Bowhouse Quintet to get an idea what he’s into] which is a whole new experience. But again, immerse yourself in the music first.

If you are familiar with guitar chords, and have a good enough ear to figure out which chords will fit a tune, then you can base your bass lines on the root of the guitar chords.

Agree with all the above that bass is not a normal sound in most trad music, but then again, that whole pitch range is empty in trad instruments, so you have lots of room to manouver. For God’s sake learn the tunes, though. Since playing trad is so melody intensive (i.e. all trad instruments are playing the melody) nothing sounds worse than some clot vamping around totally out of tune/step/beat with the melody. Fastest way to get yourself ejected from a session.

djm

I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned that there’s a popular Irish band that uses a bass-Lunasa. Obviously, listening to them could provide you with a starting place. They have two shows that you can watch at the Kennedy Centre. He uses an upright amplified instrument.
http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/archive_index.html

That’s the only Irish band I know of using a bass but American old-time bands are using them more and more. I find myself wishing they wouldn’t. Largely, they duplicate the work of the guitar since guitar players tend to a boom-chuck approach. and basses use a two beat root/fiftth style. I’ve heard a bass player at a session trying to play a steady four beats to the bar. That really violates the feel of the music and I don’t think it would work in Irish music either. As a matter of fact, the bass is not needed to keep a steady beat or to just play the root of the chords.

A bowed cello can add a lot to an old time band and the same approach might work in Irish music too. An album which uses both bass and cello (on separate cuts) is Sweet Nell. The bass player largely avoids the two beat root/fifth style. He fits his bass lines perfectly into the style. The cello player only appears on four cuts. I find it really effective on a medium tempo tune called Quarter Moon where he alternates bowed whole notes with half notes. There’s no reason a bass couldn’t have been used there. The long notes provide a sort of temporary drone undergirding the melody. You can hear a few tunes at CD Baby but not Quarter Moon. The bass appears on Kerry Shuffle and Snowday Waltz and the cello on Laughing Marj, which are tunes you can listen to on the computer. However I can’t make out what the bass or cello is doing with my dinky little computer speakers. The bass player on this album is Jon Gagen. Here’s the CD Baby site. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/adlerco

Steve

Other bands with some connection with ITM to use bass are Kila, Nomos and Moving Hearts. None of them sound traditional although some of the components sound traditional. Still, listening to them would give you some ideas, but if you really want to play ITM on bass, you’ll simply have to listen to a lot of music which has no bass part and figure out how to fit in a part that complements rather than spoils what’s going on.

You will find that Scots neo-trad bands use bass more and that Scots tunes are often easier to harmonize. Other answers have been given. I think the most important thing is to listen very carefully to what guitar players do on cds that have just a few players. Like, Arty McGlynn backing up a fiddle or flute. That will give you the feel without too much confusion.

The majority of the time, these guys do a lot of passing modal chords and partial chords so if you are playing bass, you would likely try and float along with em… you will often notice an absence of IV chords in root position, which is a bit confusing to “normal” Western harmony but its due to the nature of the guitar itself and the dropped sixth string D. They usually play a first inversion, like G/B e.g.Also, you may find a persistent but subtle chord substitute scheme on repeats of sections to make it more interesting, so if you are playing bass with someone, be prepared to play it differently.

No matter what, you will want to play nimbly, as most of the good guitarists do. The really good ones often use a very quick strumming style and are super creative in their accents (and you will want to meet them on those accents). For a very wide variety of substitute harmonizations and interesting touches, check out Solas. Its not pure trad of course, but they sure work around the melodies in an interesting fashion. Sunny Spells and Scattered Showers is the cd I am thinking of. Not everybody’s cuppa tea, tho.

We use a bass in our group and as I figure out the parts, I just follow the above guidelines, as I also harmonize most of the tunes. The best way I could characterize the bass parts in reels is that they are semi-“walking” bass parts that sometimes pause rather than play continuously. Because there are often several melody instruments of various timbres, you don’t HAVE to have a chord or harmonic stroke as much as you would expect in other styles. I often remind the guitar player to sit out on certain beats or just let the chord hang there.

And about every six months, I seriously doubt everything I have done to harmonize the reels and jigs, usually because I hear somebody great doing something completely different with the same tune. So my advice is, if using sheets to work out your ideas, do it in PENCIL. Don’t overharmonize jigs (once again, as I have done) but let 'em float a bit more. Hornpipes are easiest to add bass lines to.

And to re-emphasize, the harmonizations often used in trad do NOT fit in the expected Western Classical or even non-Irish folksong styles. They are wonderfully different and not predictable. Put simply, just because you see a triad spelled out in a melodic figure does NOT necessarily mean that you play that implied chord other than at the outset or cadence of tunes (thats how I got in trouble with jigs)… The melodies and harmonizations MEET at certain points in the phrase often… As you listen, you will see what I mean.
Though the use of guitar is knocked at times, the trad guitar players are ingenious, imo.

Just a few further points that occurred to me although they might be implicit in what’s gone before. The instruments that play parts that are most likely to be directly useful are guitar, bouzouki and piano. Be aware though that pure drop traditionalists are suspicious of even these instruments so make your contributions unobtrusive and subtle. Less is usually more. Never stop listening to what the whole group sounds like.

John Doyle, the guitarist on the early Solas CDs uses a bass guitar string tuned to D as his bottom string and plays mainly in dropped D tuning. The thing to note about Doyle’s playing, apart from his rhythmic drive, is that the bass part of his contribution is simple. It would probably be a mistake to try to emulate his driving chordal work.

Another point is that sparing use of a bowed drone might work very well in the right places, depending of course, on what other instruments are playing at the time. No point in this if you have a pipe already doing it.

if you are comfortable enough to move around in the higher octaves (Ron Carter, Dream Theater?), then I’d say it’d be good idea to learn from ITM guitar, not bass, players. That is to say, to play your bass like a guitar (or a fiddle, for slower tunes), finger-picked.

Hey thanks guys, this is helping alot.

I’ve been sitting down with some old records, and it’s been a learning experience. It’s hard to believe how fast some of those guitar player are playing, chordal wise.

And I won’t even begin to go on about how brilliant some of the violinists are.

Sick.

Does anyone know of any books with some of the forms explained? Are tunes usually AABA? What are different forms? Do they vary from region to region? Did all the violin players ingest large amounts of Speed before recording?

I’m trying to learn as much as possible, because I’ve got this gig in Calgary where I’m going to be backing up some guys. An open jam, type of thing, and I don’t want to be an idiot that everyone snickers at.

Oh, and I’m still sticking with the blasted whistle. I think my neighbours are plotting my death.

:party:

Tunes are typically AABB and repeat three times, except the ones that are AABBCC or AABBCCDD, etc. Know thy tunes. Don’t try to play when you don’t know the tune. In sessions you are expected to sit out what you don’t know. If you’re a quick study, let the tune go round once, and if you think you’ve got it, come in when you recognize the repeat. Its not like C&W where there’s only three basic tunes and then just vamp around that. ITM goes into weird modes, and if you don’t know the tune, you may progress into a minor 3rd where the tune takes a left into a fourth or a maj 7th, etc.

djm

And don’t worry about the neighbours plotting. Remember that whistles are almost indestructible, and double nicely as weapons. If that third octave doesn’t stop the neighbours, let them get within range, and then just poke 'em “gently but firmly”… :smiley:

And you can use my personal favorite, the “Overton Low D Overhead Smash”. It’s a whistle! It’s a murder weapon! What more could you want? :smiling_imp:

How about one of the “walking stick” flutes? I’m not sure how it would do as a tonewood, but it’d bring a whole new feeling to playing “The Blackthorn Stick”.

It’s a flute! It’s a shilleleigh! The most traditional, most effective “session weapon” available! :smiley:

The Serpent “Village Smithy” may only be a high D, but it’s made of chrome molybdenum steel, which should take a nice edge at the end, making it a real plug cutter.

Hey, Andrew.

I have no idea what part of Sasktachewan you’re in but if it’s not too far, head to Regina this weekend. The Mid-Winter Celtic Festival is going on. It is sponsored by my band, The City of Regina Pipe Band. Click on blue text for more info.

Just to sum up, things kick off on Friday the 6th with a Celtic Pub Night at O’Hanlon’s Pub on Scarth Street. Saturday afternoon at the same venue is an open mic/session (it’s new so I have no idea what will be going on). Then Saturday evening is the ceilidh featuring lots of great music. I’m sure you will see some whistles in there during the weekend. I’ll have a flute and some whistles with me.

Hopefully you can make it. If there are any other folks from that area lurking around, it’ll be a good show.

Cheers,
Aaron

P.S. If you want to avoid further threats to your life, get used to calling the violin a “fiddle.”