I agree with Lee. That way, Beth, our resident engineer could post her latest invention (see previous “make your own chanter thread”). 
Susan
Splintering the board = bad idea
WoooHooo!! Chanters, too!!! The more I see, the more I like!
“The Great Celtic Wind Instrument Engineering And Whisky Imbibing Forum”
… has a nice ring, huh, Dale? Well, a nice taste, anyhow! 
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
On 2002-10-18 18:41, Liam wrote:
Erik,
Well I think the thing is, that instrument making and the other aspects (I support the idea that it should include tweaking instruments and other instruments besides whistles) is not necessarily of interest to some on the main forum. Some people just like to play.
Some people like to play.
Some people like to collect.
Some people like to play celtic.
Some people like to play Irish Trad.
Some people like to play in Church.
Some people don’t want to hear the word ‘chruch’.
Some people like to make their own whistles.
Some people like to buy cheap whistles.
Some people like to buy expensive whistles.
Some people prefer conical.
Some people prefer cylindrical.
Some people like low.
Some people like high.
Some people session.
Some people closet.
Some people lurk.
Some people post.
Some people play while driving.
Some people don’t.
Some people have names for their whistles.
Some people don’t.
Some people like plastic.
Some people like metal.
Some people like wood.
Some people like reviews.
Some people tweak.
Some people play from the box.
It’s what makes us a community.
E
I personally don’t see it as splintering, more than categorizing. The “Poststructural” board has enough traffic that interesting new posts sometimes get shoved down to the bottom because of . . . well, at the risk of sounding petty . . . a bunch of OT posts on whatever non-whistle-topic-du-jour. I think whistle_making_ is enough of a subset to merit placing those messages elsewhere simply for the sake of minimizing clutter.
And I do post to the OT threads myself and have no problem with them, but sometimes when I want hot-and-heavy whistle posts, they’re harder to find.
Stuart
Hi Folks,
while I don’t have a problem with adding another forum to deal with instrument making, one thing I’ve noticed on other groups is that when you split the board into too many catagories you get a situation where a particular post could fit into 2 or more catagories, the result being that a post goes un-noticed or in some cases won’t be posted at all out of a fear that it’ll be in the wrong place. Now I’m not saying that this is likely to happen in this case but if we have another forum added now how long before someone see’s a need for another sub-category, and so it goes.In the meantime, just to see if there is a need for an instrument making forum, why not start a thread entitled “Instrument Making” then if anyone has something to post they can put it there. If the thread has dissapeared of the 1st page simply use the search facility, make your post, and there you have it, back on top. Then if you see a positive result you’ve proved your case that there is a real need for a new forum. Just my opinion.
Cheers, Mac
Here’s a novel idea:
How about we create a separate forum for all of the Off-Topic posts, then we won’t need to keep adding additional forums for on-topic discussions. Hmm, a whistle board where people actually talk about…whistles! What a concept…
Loren
On 2002-10-19 04:50, MacEachain wrote:
…but if we have another forum added now how long before someone see’s a need for another sub-category, and so it goes.In the meantime, just to see if there is a need for an instrument making forum, why not start a thread entitled “Instrument Making” then if anyone has something to post they can put it there. If the thread has dissapeared of the 1st page simply use the search facility, make your post, and there you have it, back on top. Then if you see a positive result you’ve proved your case that there is a real need for a new forum. Just my opinion.Cheers, Mac
I agree with Mac, rather than doggedly lobbying and starting multiple threads about exactly the same thing (thereby knocking posts with real content down, and off the first page for no good reason, which seems rather selfish to me), why not see if there’s enough interest by actually sustaining a few threads on whistle making, thus giving some indication what the actual instrest level for such a thing is, and perhaps proving some sort of real need for a new forum, rather than it being just a desire by a few people to have their own little world.
In the time I’ve been on this message board, I’ve seen little evidence that a whistle maker’s forum would generate enough traffic to sustain itself, and I say that as someone who happens to have a very keen interest in whistle and flute making.
It seems to me, that forums for separate instruments worked very well, and as Steve pointed out, the ITM board less so. With each new forum that opens, the ratio of off-topic to on-topic posts increases, to the point where lately there are plenty of days where the off-topic posts out number useful topical content. Adding more forums, unless they are really needed, will only further water down what little on-topic discussion still remains on the whistle board - and pretty much insures that the only discussions that are left, are the ones flogged to death time and again: “Which Low D should I buy”, et al.
I used to argue for a highly segmented message board here on C&F, because I’ve seen it work well in a one or two different places, however I’ve come to see that C&F, by it’s very nature (where most of the people posting have very little experience with the subject matter, but they like to talk a lot anyway) and it’s ever expanding size, and high turnover rate, means that a highly segmented format simply won’t work very well here - you need a broad knowledge base and enough people that stick around for years to make highly segemented forums work well…and we just don’t have that.
IMO, the best thing we could do is start an OT forum: Have a place where people can go to gab (Chat doesn’t seem to be enough), tell stories, jokes, talk politics…whatever. Then the whistle board would actually be about (gasp!) whistles, and there wouldn’t be any need for additional whistle related forums.
Well, I’m done with my lobbying now.
Loren
[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-10-19 08:51 ]
Good idea Loren…I,d support that.
Mike
Are we fussing?..Let’s try it and if it doesn’t work at least it was given a good shot.Other people could read what the whistlesmiths are talking about. They probably use private messaging at the moment and we don’t know what they say.
Loren, hi! I guess you’ve been a bit out of the loop. Your ideas regarding a separate forum for whistlemakers are well thought out and well stated. However, in the meanwhile, the scope has expanded to include all Celtic wind instruments, and would be more of a general “tech-talk” about all of 'em rather than just whistles.
Remember, my purpose here is not to take anything away from C&F, but to augment it, and to give those with an interest in the technical aspects of instrument making, be they accomplished pros like BrewerPaul, beginning commercial like me, or people who simply want information on instrument making, a more focussed forum in which to discuss those aspects.
There are over 5500 “live” topics out there on PostStructural, comprising some 50,000 plus posts. It’s really easy for discussions that aren’t high-interest to lots of people, to get lost in the chiff. All I’m looking for is a venue for one that is pertinent to all of us, in a way, but perhaps not academically interesting to all.
(edit) I am in complete agreement with you regarding the need for an “OT” forum, but question whether many would use it. Seems much more convenient, when you’re on a forum already, to just post from there. I think I’d use such a forum, but would others? I dunno. Still, I’d certainly support the idea, at least just to give it a shot!
Anyhow, I don’t hope to convert everyone who disagrees, but I do at least want you to know where I’m coming from.
Thanks for listening,
Bill Whedon
[ This Message was edited by: serpent on 2002-10-19 10:33 ]
I’ll second ErikT’s post. … Some people… I like the board the way it is OT’s and all. The love of whistles and stuff is only a part of what it is all about to me. (albeit a HUGE part) We don’t always all get along, but all in all this forum is really great. Lots of nice people with great ideas info and answers.
That being said, I do agree that a kind of “technical” forum might be a good idea as long as it doesn’t change anything here. I like the fact that Whistle smiths/makers post here. I would hope that they would continue to do so. (You hear that, Bill?) People should only use the technical forum for technical whistlemaker stuff. It would have to be more of a specialty boutique. If it works, it could really add to C&F. If it is posted to responsibly it would be easier to find technical information when you need it because it (the forum) would be smaller and easier to eyeball.
Why not give it a whirl. There have been some good arguments in its favor IMO. And as it has been said before here, if it doesn’t work, Dale can pull the plug.
Slan
-Paul
Paul sez:
I like the fact that Whistle smiths/makers post here. I would hope that they would continue to do so. (You hear that, Bill?)
Ar, ar, ar!! Paul, can you see me, or anybody named “Bill” who’s worth his salt, not posting here??
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
I’m not out of the loop Bill: I’ve read every post, in each thread, on this subject, and I understand what you’ve said…over, and over, and over again.
I offered my opinion based on having a very different perspective than you - the perspective of seeing what goes on here day in and day out for over 3 years. I certainly don’t claim to speak for everyone, only for myself. And while you and some others may disagree with me, which is to be expected, don’t assume that simply because I don’t agree with your point of view, that I don’t understand it.
As far as an OT Forum goes - Well, I know that will never happen here, but to answer your question: It would work if Dale made it clear that that’s the way things needed to be - I’ve seen it work fine on another message board. Still, since the number of people interested jawing about non-whistle “Stuff” has far outstipped the number of On-Topic lovers, I imagine it will not be a popular idea, and thus nothing will come of it - hardly a surprise.
So, we end up right back where we started: The majority of the more knowledgeable people continue to get bored or frustrated, and so wander off or quit posting, leaving the blind to lead the blind, more or less. I’m still watching and wondering if anyone who actually knows the answer is going post in it the “Sindt Oil” thread…
Never mind, I’m wasting my time, again.
Loren
I’m 100% for an OT forum. Although I can imagine Dale’s concern. Being that this is a site dedicated to whistles, an OT forum would vastly reduce the conversation that takes place on the whistle forum. I wish the Woodenflute list offered the same format as they have here. It would be so much more dynamic.
- Craig
BTW Bill,
If you would like me to treat you in a civilized manner, then stop throwing my name around in insulting ways. Don’t expect me to extend you any courtesy when you continually take little digs at me, as you’ve done in these threads; What was it it you wrote, something like “Mike, are you taking over for Loren now?” and so on. I’ve been keeping my mouth shut, perhaps you should try to do the same now and then: you should have learned by now that I don’t find your comments amusing when they include my name.
Loren
Point taken, Loren. I do beat on the thing “over and over and over”, but I’m thinking, apparently with good reason, that there are aspects of this proposed forum that are not completely understood by all, and those are the very aspects that make it important enough to continue to pound on it.
For example, the idea has expanded, as I said, to include all Celtic wind instruments. Here (and I’m sorry, but it’s long-winded) is a quote constituting a cross-post from a thread begun by MandoPaul, that addresses the subject:
Wow!! And now we’ve sucked in the pipers, as well! This thing is growing in scope far beyond just whistles, into a Celtic wind instrument engineering forum, which suits me just fine!
Mike, I don’t want to steal anybody’s secrets - that would make my whistles just another cheap, and probably inferior, copy, wouldn’t it? Let me give you a real-life example that’s going on right now…
Although I’m going to continue with the “Village Smithy” whistles (and please, don’t anybody get all pissy because I’m mentioning specifics - it’s a necessary bit of the story, and I doubt it will persuade anyone to instantly jump up and order one)… anyhow, I’ve decided to work with a great deal more precision, and to make the greater part of my whistles tunable. With that in mind, I decided, after much deliberation, to take a clue from my software background, and develop a new whistle design in a “clean room” environment.
Consequently, although I know that my design will be influenced by what I’ve already learnt, I still intend to make it as original as possible. I am using brass, and I am swaging a tuning slide. I am making an interchangeable head. I am using a totally different design for the fipple, blade, and airway, from my prior whistles.
Now, at this juncture, although I have indications that the design I’ve decided upon will actually work, I still don’t know how well it will, so there is still much experimentation to take place. The technicalities such as tube length and hole placement, are solved by experience and the liberal use of a desk calculator. But I’m still left with the as-yet-unanswered question, “Will this fipple and blade design work in this tube? And if so, how well?”
Back to the forum:
Once I get a working model, and have made a few to ensure that model wasn’t a fluke, I would post the entire process to the new forum, so as to save everyone time and effort experimenting with similar ideas. It might also have the effect of somebody saying to me, “Well, Serpent, you’re a dummy, because I could’ve told you it would/wouldn’t work!” But now, the next person to come along and want to try the idea, will already know whether or not!!!
Long-winded again, as usual, but I do hope you get my point(s).
Nobody is “right” or “wrong” here. There will be people who will “borrow” ideas, but, hey, if you post them, you’re effectively giving them away, anyhow, so where’s the harm? There are about nine billion ways to make a serviceable whistle, but not all of them are ideal. If this forum enables someone to enrich his/her life with a whistle made by him/her, then that’s reason enough to make it happen, AFAIC!
Best wishes,
Bill Whedon
And, yes, it’s more “over and over…”, but it explains aspects previously unaddressed. By the way, I’m going to drop out (!!) of the MandoPaul thread and just pursue this one on the proposed forum.
Oh, I do agree that the OT forum would probably not work unless the terms were enforced by Dale and Rich. As I said, I think it’s a good idea, however, and would certainly support it, including the rules that would make it work.
And I am listening to you, Loren, and also understanding what you say, even though I don’t agree with all of it. You provide a long perspective of this board, while I am very much a newbie. I don’t know what’s gone before, but I continue to read and learn.
Let me ask you a couple of different questions, in the same vein: Based on your prior experience with the boards, were a tech/engineering forum to be created here, what would you want it to encompass? And what “rules of order” would you believe to be required to make it the most useful it could be?
Thanks for your participation!
Best wishes,
Bill Whedon
On 2002-10-19 11:49, Loren wrote:
BTW Bill,If you would like me to treat you in a civilized manner, then stop throwing my name around in insulting ways. Don’t expect me to extend you any courtesy when you continually take little digs at me, as you’ve done in these threads; What was it it you wrote, something like “Mike, are you taking over for Loren now?” and so on. I’ve been keeping my mouth shut, perhaps you should try to do the same now and then: you should have learned by now that I don’t find your comments amusing when they include my name.
Loren
Well, if I didn’t know it before, I certainly do now, and it shall be remedied immediately. Loren, I’m attempting to extend an olive branch. My humour is sometimes a bit rude, but I honestly mean you no harm, and hold no ill will toward you for anything that’s gone on in the past. I don’t even remember what started this friction between us, but whatever it was, it’s long over, and I don’t wish for any bad feelings to continue. I am doing my level best to turn those feelings around and find some common ground with you. That doesn’t mean that I intend to agree with you on every subject, but I certainly won’t put your name in any more humour, or tease you any more. If that’s not sufficient, well, I’m sorry, but I am trying to do the right thing, I hope you’ll agree.
Best wishes,
Bill Whedon
Bill,
If this really has turned into a “All instrument engineering” thread, then I’m not sure why it would be hosted at C&F at all. http://www.mimf.com/ is already in place and there are several of the makers and those interested in making that frequent that forum. I’ve seen Mr. Bingamon and Thomas Hastay and Paul Busman among others.
It seems to me that if one has a flute making question, it would get posted in the flute forum. If you have a reed question, it would go in the pipes forum and if a whistle making question then in the whistle forum.
It may be a wonderful idea to create a new forum, but I’m with Loren (I think it was Loren?) in thinking that you ought to explore the need before creating the forum. Try posting in the main forum for a while and see if there is enough interest to merit it’s own space. In the past, we have gone through cycles of engineering posts, but just haven’t seen a lot of volume.
Erik
On 2002-10-19 11:49, Loren wrote:
I’ve been keeping my mouth shut…Loren
Now THAT’S a good one! Loren keeping his mouth shut…what a laugh!