Need innovative Ideas!!

Whistle
1

Hey all you creative-problem-solving-out-of-the-box-thinkers..help me out!

Heh..seriously, I thought it would be fun to open up a topic that could brainstorm some ideas for me. It IS** on-topic and whistle relevant.

I live in Minnesota (it was 53 degrees F BELOW zero yesterday) and I am faced with a dilemma during this season when I ship out my instruments.
Going from a controlled climate in my shop, to extreme cold can destroy a whistle or flute.

The problem/challenge is this: I’d like to develop a way of shipping my whistles which is economical, safe, efficient, and insulated.

That is, I don’t want to spend $30 to ship a whistle..so it needs to be cost effective. It needs to be structurally protected in case an idiot drives over the package with a forklift (it’s happened before!!) But I don’t want to ship it in a 3ft by 2ft cooler! I don’t want to spend HOURS packing a whistle…I just shipped out 11 whistles and I spent the entire day packaging them and shipping them! (9:30am - 3:15pm)
And most importantly…insulated. I’d like to avoid extreme climate changes!!

Any thoughts?? My own current line of thinking includes the “expanding insulation foam” one can buy from Menard’s/Lowe’s/Home Despot etc…

2

Is bubble wrap not insulating enough?

3

I’m with Emmline.

We had a tour whistle go through that was packed in one tube, inside another tube, with bubble wrap between and a cloth case around the whistle, with styrofoam blocks at the top and bottom of the inner tube. Seemed pretty thorough protection.

4

lol. My spouse runs the local “home-grown” hardware business–that’s what we call it too–but as an additional irony–we sometimes go there.

5

One thing I have seen is that some companies are allowing people to mail back insolated boxes for reuse (shipping paid). This may allow you to save some costs. If it is just radical temperature changes you are worried about, I think that THAWED ice packs could keep something in a desirable temperature range in a well insolated package for an air over night express.

I have been thinking about purchasing an instrument for the last month, however I am afraid that it would not make it in one piece. Waiting until the lakes thaw before ordering may drive me crazy.

Right now, it is a balmy 24 deg. (F) in Minneapolis with those large soft snowflakes falling and making everything look white and clean, I guess you need the cold days to appreciate the warm ones!

6

Pack the instruments in your shop with bubble wrap, etc. When it goes out in the cold, it won’t chill instantly-- it will gradually drop in temperature. Put a note on the outside of the package for the recipient to let the package acclimate to their room temperature when it arrives-- not immediately rush to open it. As long as temperature changes are gradual, cracking should not be a real problem

7

Davey,
What about cat litter? It’s cheap and should provide a good insulation. you could put the whistle or flute in a plastic bag and pour the litter around it till the package is full. The litter would form-fit to the whistle and hold it tightly packed in place by filling the open areas in the package. It could all be done very quickly. It might be a little bit messy but if it served the purpose I don’t think most folks would mind.

Best,
Paul

8

Davey, I’ve been shipping chanters in the plywood/cardboard packages (like the one I sent to you) for a while now and haven’t lost one. All of the cardboard boxes and some of the round mailing tubes others have used sending packages to me haven’t been so lucky. Since I’ve got access to a woodshop it’s a piece-o-cake to rip scraps down to size.

Careful using expanded foam. If too much is used and it leaks around the bag it will bond to whatever product is inside the box. Since your whistles are small and about the same size, precut packaging would be an easy job. Look into using 2" thick white foam (available from Home Depot) and fabricate a foam cutter. I can send you details for this if needed.

Remember, insulation won’t keep the product warm, just retard the time it takes to get cold. They will be in transit for 3-4 days usually. Consider slowly bringing them down in temperature a day or two before you actually ship.

9

Well..here’s what I currently do.

Each whistle is wrapped in the comfort of my warm shop in it’s very own soft wool case. The rolled up in bubble wrap until there is a layer of bubbles more than 1 inch thick. I then place the wrapped whistle into a 3" o.d. white pvc tube with caps on each end. The ends are then sealed with tape.

Sturdy, economical, safe, efficient…but* I’m trying to see if I can get MORE insulation from the horrendous COLD!

…let me explain further why I’m SCARED of the cold…my wife recently shut off the heat in the shop (inadvertantly). I learned this fact after a long weekend…when I returned to the shop more than 10 fipples had failed critically! (sigh..dead fipples)…That’s a great deal of work down the toilet..not to mention the time, effort, materials etc etc..Now imagine this happens to a FINISHED instrument…

I take all precautions I can, I just want to make sure I’m exhausting all the possibilities…short of sending the thing in an electric sock…

…hey..wait a minute! That’s not a bad idea…how much do electric socks cost? and i wonder if they’d get past the x-ray machines…

10

I’m still trying to wrap my hear around -53 degrees F. That’s cold. I mean. Please. Cold. Really, really, really cold.



I’m sorry…but that’s COLD.


Dale (Gift-For-the-Obvious) Wisely

11

I use that black tubular foam that is designed to insulate home hot water pipes. You can buy it in 6 foot lengths for a few dollars at any decent hardware store. It comes in 2 or 3 different inside diameters.

12

I was going to say, “I once got a whistle that was packed in heavy PVC pipe for shipping. . .” Then I remembered it was you. Ring up Glenn Schultz. He’s been at it since forever in a climate not all that different from yours. I do have a few thoughts.

The pipe will virtually eliminate exchange of air with the atmosphere. That’s a biggie. Other than what’s been suggested by the others already; you might consider getting a 2.5" thick sheet of styrofoam and cutting it to the appropriate shape to accept a whistle and go into your pipe shipper. Another material to consider is newspaper. Not elegant, but it really is a good insulator. Several layers wrapped around the whistle, then some crumpled, and iterate.

You might also consider taking the whistles to the shipping point and requiring an in-person signature for delivery. The ambient temp is unlikely to go below 40 or so for any significant period then.

13

That wasn’t in Davey’s location. The -53 reading was in the northerly town named, of all things, Embarrass (imagine that) which is frequently known for impressive lows. Here in the balmy climes of the Twin Cities metro area the average yesterday was around 6 degrees Fahrenheit. It got down to around -30F wind chills at night, though. Nice and bracing.

Now we’re up to the 20s.

14

Or you could go seriously overboard and put the whistle in some smaller-diameter pipe insulation, put that inside the PVC, then wrap the PVC in some larger-diameter pipe insulation, sealed with lots of packing tape. Plenty of insulation and shock-absorption.

Cheers,
John

15

Let’s try to figure this out …

It’s my understanding that changes in relative humidity, rather than changes in temperature, are what cause wood to expand and contract.

If it was very cold outside and your shop was heated to a normal inside temperature, the relative humidity in the shop would have been very low unless you did something to humidify the air in your shop. (Warm air can hold more moisture than cold air. 100% relative humidity = all the moisture the air can hold at that temperature. If the air is at, say 50% relative humidity at 20 degrees temperature, the same air will have a much lower relative humidity, maybe 10%, when you heat it to 70 degrees.)

If the wood had acclimated to your shop and then the heat got turned off, the relative humidity would have gone quickly from low to high, causing the wood to swell. (If you humidify your shop when the heat is on, the relative humidity would have gone from moderate to very high.) In your shop, there is virtually unlimited moisture for the wood to absorb because there’s a large amount of air holding the moisture.

However, if a whistle is shipped in an airtight container and goes through the same temperature cycle, the air in the container will also change in humidity, but if there’s little or no air in the container, there will be very little actual moisture that could get taken up by the whistle. Hygroscopic packing materials could absorb some moisture, too.

I’m thinking that the conditions in a shipping container may be less dangerous to a whistle than the conditions in a workshop with the heat suddenly turned off in cold weather.

I would be inclined, on the basis of this mental exercise, to pack the whistles with as little as possible air around them, and with materials (paper, cardboard, etc.) that could absorb moisture. I would also check with Paul and Glenn, who’ve been in the business long enough to discover how much of a problem there really is, to see what they’ve experienced.

Best wishes,
Jerry

16

Shrink wrap. Then insulate.

17

While we’re at it …

Does anyone know of an epoxy that bonds well to metal and plastic and has a fairly long working time, maybe 25 minutes or longer? (I’m not interested in cyanoacrylates. They’re great glues, but I’m sensitive to the fumes.)

Best wishes,
Jerry

18

Hey Jerry, ever heard of Gorilla Glue Best Glue/Epoxy I have ever used. :smiley:

Davey, I have heard your whistles have thick walls, thin walls are th main reason many whistle makers don’t make keyed whistles. As a Pipemaker you can make Keyed chanters. Ever thought about Keyed whistles? Just a thought but sereiously you might want to consider it I mean do you knoe how rare they are.

19

Gorilla Glue is great stuff, but it’s not suitable for my application. It’s a urethane glue, not an epoxy, and it expands as it cures, which wouldn’t work for my use.

I appreciate the suggestion, though.

Best wishes,
Jerry

20

Avery..

Yeah..the keyed whistle thing is “in the works” as a pet project. I’m actually thinking of making a Bflat whistle in nickel silver and blackwood and using the “Taylor” brothers keystyle…(just for kicks)

(the above is a chanter done in the Taylor stule, made by the honorable team of David Quinn and B. Koehler)
Jerry…I’m sorry…I skimmed your email pretty quick as my youngest daughter was singing “tooth time” at me and my son was exclaiming something about being a “jail man” and my Andy Irvine look-alike dog was howling because he was lonely…but the problem (that I’m primarily talking about) that flutes and other wooden instruments face with cracking is mostly a temperature issue because it involves ferrules, tuning slides and lined wooden joints. That is the greatest weakness of wooden flutes (imho) is that they are prone to this type of cataclysmic failure. The wood and brass contract and expand at different rates as temperature changes. In other words, the wood shrinks faster than the brass/ metal and crrraack! (sorry, I realize that half the C&F community just cringed!)

Keep the ideas coming…

p.s. Awww!!! SHucks Nano, why’d ya go and spoil my fun…alright alright it was only 10 or 20 below plus the windchill factor and all..there ya happy!
As Minnesotans it is our CULTURAL HERITAGEA to brag/complain about the apocolyptic like winters! …sniff…and this winter as been SO* wimpy..hardly ANY snow! grrr…

p.s.s. Jerry..I re-read your email and it made my head hurt! You may be on to something there…I defer to your headhurting science…Can I go back to my dowsing rod