Moral Question--responses welcome

Poststructural Pub
1

Suppose you have an uncommonly kind and intelligent
friend, a warm and generous person who has gone
out of his/her way to help you and whom you can
count on. S/he is very clear headed and has excellent
judgement about people and can see very readily
through bad arguments and silly views. S/he’s highly
educated, in fact. One of the best people you know.

One day your friend confides in you that the Jewish
conspiracy runs the world. S/he is
captivated by
conspiracy theories about jews. S/he believes the Lewininski
scandal was a Jewish conspiracy to bring down
Clinton, for instance. When you object that other explanations
of what happened are more than adequate s/he
sneers: ‘Don’t be naive! It’s no accident she was
Jewish!’ Also s/he disbelieves
in the Holocaust, it’s been much exaggerated.
On this one subject, s/he proceeds by insinuations and innuendos,
smirks and winks.

Then s/he goes back to being the kind, clear-headed,
generous person you’ve always known.
Except for being a virulent
anti-Semite (which s/he generally keeps to herself),
s/he’s the person whose judgement
you most trust.

What do you do? Do you stay friends? Or what?

2

Yuck. You’re on your own for this one. :blush:

3

If friendship were ruled by judgement
All would be stoned
and fall together …

4

I wrote this in 2002. It’s a true story. The bigotry here concerns
Jews but that’s not so important. Any racism
will do. I’m deeply confused by human moral
psychology:

In 1943 a young Polish woman, about 20,
was walking past the Warsaw ghetto when
she saw a young Jewish woman, the same
age, who had crawled through the barbed
wire. The Jewish girl was lying
on the sidewalk, too exhausted and
famished to move.

The Polish girl gathered up the Jewish
girl, took her home (where she
lived with her mother) and hid her. The
penalty for doing such a thing was death;
indeed, hundreds of such Poles were shot.
Also anti-Semitism in Poland was so
widespread that your neighbours, if they
suspected you of hiding Jews, would likely
inform the Nazis. After the war, elements
of the Polish resistance, which had
fought the Nazis, went about murdering
Poles who had helped Jews.

After a month the neighbours became
suspicious. ‘You must go,’ the Polish
girl told the Jewish girl, ‘or else
we will all be shot. But I’ll go with you.’
So for the next two years the Polish
girl and the Jewish girl hid in the
forest, slept in haystacks, appearing
at people’s doors at dusk to beg for
food.

One night as they were lying in
a haystack, the Jewish girl asked the
Polish girl: ‘What do you think of
Jews?’ ‘Jews are terrible people!’
the Polish girl answered vehemently.
‘They cut the throats of gentile
children to use their blood in the
Passover matza. They’re all rich.
They contol everything…’ She was,
you see, a virulent anti-Semite,
who hated Jews.

The Jewish girl burst into tears.
‘You’re not like that, of course!’
the Polish girl said.

Among the people who rescued Jews in
Poland during the Holocaust
there were many people who acted out of sheer
compassion. Some of them
hated Jews; nor did their hiding Jews in
the attic change this. After the war
they continued to be anti-Semites.
When asked why they had risked their
lives to help people they so despised, they
often answered simply: ‘They were helpless. We couldn’t let them be murdered.’

There are extraordinarily compassionate and courageous
bigots. The worst among us are sometimes the best
among us. During the civil rights movement I met
segregationists who would have hid negroes in their
attic if some genocidal progam was happening. They
hated the black race but they cared about
black people. Sometimes racists would talk
to me at length, most eloquently, about the plight
of the American Indians.

5

Wise words.

6

Personally, I would remain friends. However, I would limit my contact and interaction with this person.

I have what I see as similar situations when some people talk about other aspects of politics or current events. I am certain some people see some of the things I believe as to be as far out there, though perhaps not as virulently damaging as some of the beliefs stated in the original post.

Some friends have tried to corner me in this regard. Despite my efforts to stay away from political or religious subjects sometimes they insist on pressing me. One of these folks is almost as far out there as the hypothetical posed, though of course they don’t see themselves that way.

In some circles virulent anti-[fill in the blank] is par for the course. It might be against Jews, or Catholics, or Muslims, or blacks, or other ethnic groups, or social groups. Does it mean that anyone from that circle of people can’t be my friend? That is how the wall gets built and maintained. Find the common ground that is to be found. That person and I may never see eye-to-eye on any number of issues.

A person can remain a friend, just don’t talk politics and religion and most friendships will last a lot longer and be stronger.

Now, if that hypothetical person crosses the line, and takes part in beatings of said groups, or worse murder, or similar heinous crimes against man and God, then it is time to say goodbye. Believing and thinking is one thing, acting on, and crossing the line into criminal behavior, especially violent behavior and that is the end.

7

Maybe I would explain, frankly and clearly to this friend, that my views on this one subject differ from hers/his to the point of irreconcilability. To me, perhaps it would be this person’s ability to respect my perspective–and therefore to avoid offending me with references to this prejudice–which would make or break the friendship.

8

I’d suggest that your friend is neither kind, nor intelligent, nor …


…well, “with friends like this”, hm ?

9

Jim, I wonder does s/he know that you’re a Jew?

That is a horrible predicament and I found myself in an eerily similar situation once, except that instead of Jews the target group was gay people. And I’m not sure if s/he knew I was gay, at least at first.

I stayed friends with the individual until s/he eventually moved away and broke off all contact. I don’t know what ever became of her/him, actually. S/he just dissappeared, which doesn’t seem likely for your friend.

It’s such a scarey thing to realize that a person who is so educated, so well-thought, can have such non-mainstream opinions. And it’s so scarey because on some level you wonder what if s/he may be right. I mean, if s/he is so “together” in so many other areas, it stands to reason that perhaps s/he is right here, too. Perhaps Jews (or gays, or blacks, or whatever) really are what s/he believes. And if so, what does that mean for you?

That’s the kind of feelings and emotions I went through, at least.

So I guess I haven’t really offered any advice per se, but I hope I’ve helped in some way. Perhaps you will get lucky and s/he will move away and never be heard from again. :stuck_out_tongue:

I strongly disagree. For many of us who lead a religious life and/or have religious vocations, not to talk about religious subjects is not to talk much at all.

10

True for some, but others among us can manage to keep our mouths shut.

Especially if there is sex involved. (Not that there is in this case, jim, but just in general.)

11

Jim’s story reminds me of a conversation I had in real life.

That person said “every person [in a certain political party] is a crook.”

I said, well “I belong to that party, am I a crook?”

“Well, no.”

“How about so-and-so, is he a crook?”

“Well, no.”

“How about this other person?”

“Well, no.”

Hyperbole and hate, even in an open society runs deep. Just imagine what it is like in a closed society, or in a mono-ethnic society like 90% of humans live in. A person born in America or Western Europe probably has no idea, nor can they imagine the depth of hatred and ignorance in most of the world. Does that mean that all those folks can never be my friend? Again, that is how the wall is built and maintained.

12

Plenty of people lead a religious life, and may even be ministers or clergy. They have no need to hit people over the head with their faith. Instead, their actions speak for them–living a good life by example is far more powerful than any number of lectures or sermons.

Unless a person is an evangelical and called by their faith to convert others, I see little need to talk about it. Live a life filled with faith by example, not by lecturing.

I will grant an exception for college age folks or younger, because most of whom are still forming their opinions, most are still looking for home. For adults, religious conversation is rarely productive. Same with politics.

13

While I wouldn’t use the phrase “to convert others,” this describes most Christians and Muslims, for sure, I think.

14

This seems reasonable.

15

You surely have a dilemma on your hands, considering this is a friend and not just an acquaintance.

My own personal philosophy includes the idea that we are all just trying to get by and that we do the best we can in our own situations, as diverse as they are. That sometimes our situation, for whatever reason, may hold something that is (or perhaps should be) exclusively ours, and something that we cannot share with others. Hopefully we can discern when it’s appropriate, and when it’s not.

I don’t mean to say that by not sharing you are holding back - it’s just that we are all indeed different, always have been and always will be.

As a gay person, I know what it is like to belong to a group of human beings that is stigmatized in one way or the other by this one or that one - and certainly there have been cases in my life when it was time to move another direction from someone that I cared about - that’s just the way dynamic relationships, in the greater perspective, seem to work.

As a Christian, and an Episcopalian, (having been raised in an frighteningly fundamentalist - and judgmental - Assembly of God environment) I find that It is my own personal challenge of faith to consider carefully the situation of each person I encounter, and either nurture the relationship if that’s where it is leading, or move on. You don’t have to agree, just accept, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to remain…

I do, however, wonder these days, how it is that “we” as Christians (broadly defined, maybe) can be so secure and often haughty and arrogant about the historical accuracy of events some 2,000 years ago and more. We seem not to consider that we are reading these ancient Middle Eastern writings with our very Western (thus VERY different in most every way) eyes and minds. Yet we can’t come to terms with events in the last 50 years, i.e., the holocaust, who it was that fired a gun from a grassy knoll, or what exactly happened one Sept. 11, just a few short years ago.

It’s a challenge - a real challenge that you face with your friend, but be assured you are not alone.

Reg

16

I find it hard to believe that the person you described as warm and intelligent would even believe such a conspiracy theory or any type of blanket generalization. As for compassion I know plenty of racist people who at least wouldn’t lift a finger to harm anyone. At best there would be individual cases that would move these people to take action and help.

As to the real question of if I would remain friends with this person the answer is a difficult one. The actual racism doesn’t bother me as much as the underlying ignorance. Which of course is what all racism stems from but in this particular case it runs deeper if the person disputes historical facts just to bolster his/her argument.

17

I like the “Ann Landers” or “Dear Abby” approach. Ask yourself if you’re better off with or without your friend. There is no correct answer, only your answer.

18

That is a real dilemma.

My own thoughts would center around the fact that you value the friendship, that you value her as a friend.

As much as you can, ignore it, and I would say trying to avoid the subject might be prudent.

If the subject comes up, then you might explain to her that even the closest friends will not always agree on every subject, and that you have your own thoughts on the subject.

Just my $.02, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it.

Good luck, Jim. I hope you can avoid hurting her, and can also avoid being hurt by her.

–James

19

Being born in the year of the Monkey, I would not be able to leave this one alone. I would first want to get beyond the generalisations and dig into the meat of the matter to find out just what specifically your friend has against Jews; what started all this. Was it from a mother or other respected adult that the initial nastiness stems? Was there a real negative experience this individual experienced involving Jews?

And more to the point, what exactly is it that this person fears from Jews? They aren’t the president of your country or anything, so government conspiracies don’t really count for much. What, on a personal level, does this person fear from Jews?

I doubt that they will be able to come up with anything to substantiate their professed views, and the more obviously baseless their stand becomes through discussion, the less likelihood that the subject will ever be raised between you again.

djm

20

I would really have a hard time remaining friends with such a person. Perhaps that’s my shortcoming, but having grown up in a community where racism was both commonplace and, for the most part, accepted, I have zero tolerance for it. I have to say that hearing that kind of thing coming from the mouth of a friend would sour the friendship pretty quickly.

Redwolf