Let’s jump straight into it: why do they change the voicing of mass produced whistles?
While there is a matter of personal taste, majority of whistlers seem to prefer vintage/older models of mass produced whistles. In the case of the generation, the feadog, and most recently, the Dixon trads, the older versions are deemed to play better. I agree with the majority of the opinions, the older production models of these whistles usually sound much sweeter.
I understand that the makers want to experiment with voicing, but with all of these opinions floating around, why can’t they simply go back to the older, in-demand models? (I don’t know much about the process of mass producing).
I imagine that if they offer reproductions of pre-1980’s gens, MK1 feadog and short-ramped Dixon trads, they would sell like hot cakes. Heck, I would jump at the chance to buy loads of them.
(There’s a little part of me hoping that this will reach the makers as well )
The change in voicing is simply a matter of demand. There is a demand for louder whistles. So whistles, over time, have been made to play louder. And as these things go, you change one thing, you loose another. You want volume, you loose sweetness, and vice versa. It’s a balancing act and overall the demand is for more volume.
Read opinions on the forums here. There’s a constant chatter about volume, to ‘cut through’ (don’t get me started) increasingly large and noisy sessions and to be heard over increasingly more and louder instruments. ‘Session bore’ style instruments with ‘good’ volume, you name it, people want it, prefer it. 'Louder than my Generation’ is usually seen as a great, positive quality.
The way it used to be, people accepted the whistle for what it was, an instrument with limitations. When larger volume was needed, to play for dancers and/or a noisy playing situation, they’d play the flute instead.
That’s really all there’s to it.
And really, that whole spiel around ‘whistles used to be so much better’, that doesn’t wash. They weren’t, even if they may have been different and had some qualities you pine for now. Nostalgia just isn’t what it used to be either, as you know. Ships were made of wood and men were made of steel in those days (and they were wrecked and died of TB by the time they were forty, respectively). Take off the rose-tinted glasses.
What struck me, as someone who started playing whistles in the 70s when Generations were the only D whistles available here, was the dichotomy between how those 70s Generations played and how all the American-made neo-whistles that subsequently came along played.
My take on it at the time (which the years haven’t changed) was that Irish players accepted and liked how those Generations played, but Americans who took up the whistle nearly always came to ITM from other genres of music and brought with them a different concept of what was desirable.
They evidently wanted whistles that sounded like Native American flutes, or Boehm flutes, or Recorders, or practically anything other than a whistle. They wanted a big full rich tone in the low register, and didn’t mind if sweetness and nimbleness in the 2nd octave was sacrificed. It’s my belief that part of this was tonguing: if one tongues the notes in a Boehm flute/Recorder way having a stiff 2nd octave isn’t as much as an issue because each note can be forced out individually.
Irish reels especially demand much more nimbleness up there.
This came up just a couple weeks ago when I attended the annual convention of The National Flute Association. I visited the booth of a guy who makes very expensive whistles out of Grenadilla and Sterling Silver. They were the very Poster Child of what I’m talking about: big Recorder/Native American Flute tone in the low octave, stiff and recalcitrant in the 2nd octave.
I played a bit and he says “what do you think?” and I said that the 2nd octave was too stiff for me.
He said “Mary Bergin told me the same thing.”
I bet he sells plenty of whistles to Boehm flute players who love how his whistles play.
thank you all for pitching in! It really is a lot of insight for younger whistlers like myself, especially when talking about vintage instruments.
I have heard/read about the need for stronger sounding whistles, but pancelticpiper’s theories on this topic dig deep into the anthropological and social nature of music.
Looking at it this way, it seems to be a topic worthy of academic study. I had never thought of that angle before; people coming into ITM and whistling through other genres of music hence the desire for different tonal and playing qualities in an instrument.
This reminds me of an experience of mine, introducing the whistle to a classical flautist friend. He was having trouble staying on the first octave and could not shake of tounging every note.
On a separate note, I do seem to notice trends in whistle demand. I have been reading through the forums, and it seems that demand fluctuates. There are times when most of the entries talk about whistles that can cut through a session. Nowadays, talk seems to gravitate more towards sweeter, more nimble whistles. How nice would it be if they start mass producing vintage style mouthpieces again
I had never thought of that angle before; people coming into ITM and whistling through other genres of music hence the desire for different tonal and playing qualities in an instrument.
Hmm, I actually believe it is one of the main, everlasting fault lines and definitely the main flash point in the discussions on this forum.
There are times when most of the entries talk about whistles that can cut through a session. Nowadays, talk seems to gravitate more towards sweeter, more nimble whistles. How nice would it be if they start mass producing vintage style mouthpieces again
I don’t think I agree with you on changing trends (towards a quieter, sweeter instrument)but first of all it is a mistake to equate what is being said on this forum with what whistlers (at large, actively playing, in Ireland or elsewhere) want. In fact, out of ‘real world’ musicians I know, not even a handful even looks at this forum occasionally and I can’t think of any contributing regularly (or even irregularly, other than perhaps to make a CP).
That is true Mr. Gumby. The forums do not speak for the many musicians out there. It’s just that in my country, there are only two other people who I know of who seriously play ITM on whistles (sadly, but I am trying to raise awareness!). Hence, the forums are one of my main social outlets to hear from other ITM whistlers.
There is enough demand for whistles that play more like the old ones for makers like Sindt and Killarney to be popular.
And Burke, probably in response to demand, came out with a Narrow Bore version of his D whistle which, to me, plays more like a traditional whistle than his Session Bore whistle.
Yet there are still loads of whistles that “get it wrong” to my way of thinking.
Another aspect of people coming to whistle from Boehm flute is the demand for a thumb-hole for C natural, analogous to the way the Boehm flute is fingered, but which flies in the face of the way whistles and pipes work. (On pipes the thumb plays D, not C.)
This is going to seem random, but a similar thing has happened with kilt design, with Americans who were not brought up wearing kilts demanding kilts that fit and function like trousers.
Whistle = Boehm flute and kilt = trousers are both false analogies in my opinion. But money talks and makers will make what people want to pay for.
I couldn’t agree more. When I was starting out it was nearly impossible to find a whistle I really liked, because everyone around me was playing the horrific wide-bore hand cannons. It’s a shame, because if my upcoming experiment is successful I may want to sell some homemade whistles that are Generation inspired. I wonder how much of a market they’ll have…
Anyway, my experience has led me to a few (highly opinionated) conclusions.
If your face is screwed up like a prune trying to play the B part of the Star of Munster, you do not have an “Irish” whistle.
If you can’t hear yourself playing in a session, you’re in the wrong session. (A shame for those of us who are limited in our session choices)
If you find yourself desiring more volume, it may be the “Great Highland Bagpipe” you meant to take up, not the “tin whistle” (damn you, autocorrect)
A real problem in a market dominated by beginners.
Like others have said here, there are makers who make whistle options that play closer to something like a Generation. And I also agree that a hand cannon is not the desirable instrument to play. My main whistles these days are a Hoover Whitecap and Humphrey narrow bore. Both play on the quieter side, and I don’t need anything louder for the gigs I play (though everything is mic’d). The high pitch of the whistle is often enough to break through in a group.
When someone suggested to me that I should get a louder whistle (and I did get one), it was for the reason others have mentioned, to break through in a group. The band we were playing with was somewhat large, but looking back at it, the louder whistle was not necessary. Towards the end of playing with them, I reached for the narrow bore Humphrey, and it wasn’t a problem.
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