A diameter of 17.7 is pretty narrow for a D–probably better for key of E or Eflat. It will certainly work for a D, but your first octave might not be as full, and tone development might be a bit less friendly. But 23mm for a D is way too big, in my experience. I’d say 20 maximum for a D flute. But all of this is based upon the idea of making it easier to balance both octaves, and ideally have a nice timbre. Big bores have a darker timbre–less complex to my ear. Personally, I shoot for an aspect ratio of 28:1 for a transverse flute, give or take. But it’s worthwhile to experiment and see what happens with different keys in that bore.
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Is anyone familiar with using a “restrictor ring” near the end stopper on a cylindrical flute to bring the top of the second octave into tune? Google AI suggested it, so I tried it.
First of all, I have to say how difficult it is to remain objective when testing pitches. I invariably found myself trying to lip pitches into tune. That’s a good thing when playing live, but not very helpful when you’re trying to create useable data to judge results. So take my findings with a grain of salt. The numbers reflect a mixture of placebo effect and wishful thinking.
I measured the upper pitches of the second octave first without and then with the ring in place.
- G 5 went from -12 to -4c (flat)
- A went from -20 to -6
- B went from -20 to -4
- C# went from-25 to-8
- D 6 was a real outlier… without the ring it was +30 (sharp) with the ring it sounded -25… if I played it OXX OOX, I got a D that was +12.
These results are hardly definitive. I would go as far as to say that they’re highly suspect. This applies as well to my general sense that the flute tends to “speak” more easily and clearly with the ring in place. (Clearly I am not to be trusted)
As you can see in the first picture, the ring has a hard chine, in boat building terms. I wonder if it would be better to have it beveled towards the embouchure hole.
I gleaned some wedge measurements from the web and posted the sources and a comparison graph on this discussion Competitive benefits of conical and cylindrical flute bores? - #60 by david_h
I think it is in that discussion that there is a post saying the some traditional Asian cylindrical flutes have the stopper very close to the blow hole to help with second octave tuning. Dixon flute-whistle combos come with the cork just beyond the blow hole.
I have read this as well. I will go through that thread to see what wisdom I can glean there.
That is definitely a good thread for you to read toffle. Lots of useful information there regarding head bore perturbations.
The Asian flutes referred to there are Bansuri flutes from India. They are transverse flutes, made from bamboo, and have both very large tone holes and a stopper that is placed very close to the embouchure hole. Both factors influence the second octave tuning. But it is also worth noting that these flutes are made from bamboo, and hence are not strictly cylindrical. Bamboo generally has some kind of taper going on.
Also, when you move the stopper closer to the embouchure it really weakens the lower notes. If you make them louder by using a bigger bore you end up with playing characteristics and a harmonic mix that sounds different to our Irish flutes. And if you address the second octave tuning by making the tone holes really large, they become difficult to cover and ultimately prevent crisp ornamentation that is central to our genre of music. This is not to say that they are bad flutes, of course. They sound fantastic for Indian music in the right hands, but they don’t make good Irish flutes.
I’ve got a Bansuri in high C (ish) but it’s probably a tourist item from 40 years ago and the cork has shrunk so it won’t fit in any sensible position in the slightly tapering head. So I wasn’t sure if it was that was referred to. What it shows me is that a 2.3mm wall thickness is enough for a functional embouchure hole. It’s only - but important - use has been for me to check that I could get a sound out of a transverse flute before I ordered one. Huge holes.
Here is a picture of a set of bansuri flutes. For reference, I placed one of my Pratten model Irish flutes (key of D) on the top of the rack. This gives a good indication of the tone hole sizes and placement on a Bansuri. As far as Irish flutes go, Prattens are considered to have very large tone holes, but they seem quite small compared to the average bansuri. Also, I find that stretch between the last two tone holes on a bansuri tough to manage.
Nice picture, tends to confirm that mine is the equivalent of a Guinness whistle. Is that an octave range? Mine is labelled “No. 2 C” and must be smaller than the smallest in the photo. The cork has got a layer of ribbed material facing the embouchure hole. Is that an acoustic feature? Or maybe just a sign that it was cut out of a table mat or similar.
Yes, that is an octave range. The highest pitched one plays F# as its bell note, whereas the lowest pitch one plays G. So we’d call them F# and low/bass G flutes, but in bansuri terminology they are called B and C respectively, because bansuri are named after the note played with the top three holes closed and bottom three open.
Those bass flutes are ridiculously difficult to play due to the extreme stretch. The bansuri fifth from the top is the same pitch as our D flutes, and it is already quite a difficult stretch due to the size of the tone holes and the wide stretch between the last two tone holes.
So, you can see that the bore is pretty large, the tone holes are huge, and the embouchure is acoustically quite large due to the shallow chimney height (thin walls, and no lip plate). All of this, and the stopper position, contributes to the tuning, but it makes them quite a different beast to play than our Irish flutes, despite the scale being essentially the same.
Oh, and they are also fully chromatic, due to the ease of half-holing on such huge tone holes, and this also opens up all kinds of possibilities for bending notes and blending seamlessly between pitches … if you have the skill to do it.
Here is an example of what they can sound like in the right hands:
If you liked that one, lose yourself for an hour in this one. Mind blowing virtuosity!
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Yes, thank you. Lots of good info and discussion there. Some of the technical aspects are likely beyond me, but that’s based on my first reading of the thread. Some things will come into focus with further study. I am particularly interested in placing a Fajardo wedge near the stopper. I may give that a try. (First I want to try chamfering the leading edge of the restrictor ring that I have in place now.)
Cheers
That flute playing was insane! As was Zakir’s skills on the tabla. I was told that music was often a family vocation in India, and Rakesh takes after his uncle Hariprasad. Wow!