Low Ds with relaxed second/third octaves

Whistle
1

This may be thread more for makers than players though some of the latter may understand these things. I play a Goldie low D (an “easy blower”) and love it!! Most people buying a low D want a strong fundamental and first octave, and the Goldie has these in spades. But increasingly I would like to be able to play high second and low third octaves notes that have a more relaxed and musical tone, and without having to really push them. I’d also like a slightly quieter whistle too. I’m sure Colin could make me such a whistle but I want first to better understand the dynamics.

Low whistles that are renowned for their more relaxed higher notes include O’Briain, Reviol, Lambe and Hamilton but all have high windways low backpressure and relatively high air requirements. But, according to Guido Gonzato’s “Low-Tech Whistle” page, “a short window makes notes in the second octave easier to play, while making first octave notes softer.”

My questions are two-fold. First, how do these two characteristics - low backpressure & shortened window - differ in the way they affect the second/third octaves and how do they work together? Second, if it is possible, how does one create a low D with a relaxed second/third octave but with more moderate air requirements and what are the drawbacks apart from a more sensitive bottom end?

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I think a lot of it has to do with the bore ID of the entire tube.

In general a narrower bore will get you sweeter/more accessible high notes and wimpier low notes, a bigger bore will get you fat low notes but unforgiving and even harsh high notes.

3

That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about that . . . but now you come to mention it, it makes perfect sense. But it doesn’t answer my question. Given a certain bore the size of the airway and the length of the window will determine how the second octave plays in relation to the first. My question is how those two adjustments relate to each other and to how the upper octave behaves.

I wish someone making whistles would write a book about whistle-making and their dynamics. Colin Goldie would be the man but I think he plenty to contend with already!!

4

Mike, you get easier speaking upper second octave notes with shorter window length (distance from windway exit to labium). It will influence the tone too. Look how short recorder windows are, and how large some whistle windows are. A shorter window length will need less pressure for the jet, so it blows easier for the same window width. Lower pressure will not only be for the bottom notes, but also for the higher second octave notes. Of course the pressure on the high end is still loads larger than on the low end, and the volume respectively louder. If you want a quiet high end you really need to play flute! A recorder can also play quieter in the upper octaves, because it uses a thumb hole to suppress the fundamental (first octave) notes.

Apart from bore size (length to bore ratio) and window length the hole sizes of the upper three holes and the smoothness of edges in general has an influence how easy the upper second octave notes are playing, smaller holes make it easier. See recorders again as example, but I am not suggesting to reduce holes so far.

Another factor is the bore itself. A cylindrical bore in a low whistle requires intonation adjustments for higher second octave notes, by blowing them harder into tune. A tapered bore (see recorders again!) will eliminate this, alternatively a tapered head, a wedge or a bore restriction in the head can adjust for this, and can make the upper notes more comfortable.

I have been working with these questions, and changed the design of my low whistles accordingly, with very good results. I prefer easy blowing whistles, with easy octave transitions and good responsiveness. One might need a bit more air, but with a cleaner tone this is not too much, compared to some "free blowing " whistles with large window length, which take a lot of air, because the air stream is not used so efficiently.

5

Thank you for your reply, Hans. This is interesting and helpful stuff. So shortening the window and increasing the height of the windway will both create an “easier-speaking second octave.” If you raise the height of the windway, you lower backpressure, increase air requirements and the whistle blows freely throughout the range. I assume you also increase the breathiness of the tone. Am I right?

If, alternately, you shorten the window, do you also, by that action, decrease back pressure and make it an easier blower but without an increase in air requirements. Is that correct? This is where I’m a little confused. And what happens to the tone?

Its interesting that most low whistle makers go for a strong fundamental and lower octave when much of the interest in low whistles comes from Davy Spillane’s modified big hole Overton which had no backpressure at all and a very weak fundamental, but a lovely soaring upper second/lower third octave. Whether the whistle had a high windway or shortened window I don’t know. Without going to the extremes of Davy’s whistle I would like one that would be comfortable in the second octave but would also be concerned that adjustments to a “standard” whistle, whether through a higher windway or a shortened window, would not remove breathiness in the tone.

I would appreciate it if you would clear up my misunderstandings. I would like to buy my next whistle with more awareness of what can be done and what I would like. Since I’m only a few hours north of you up in Caithness I may well want to discuss possibilities with you. I like it that you “custom build instruments to your requirements.”

Many thanks.

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Mike, I do not have much experience regarding varying the windway height. This is due to the construction method where the windway height is set by the wall thickness of the head tube, a round plug is inserted, and a sleeve fitted to form the beak and top of the windway. This is one standard method to construct whistles with curved windways. So rather than changing the windway height to change air requirements I change the windway and window width.

I think Overton type whistles use a construction method which has the window and windway width more or less fixed, while the windway height can be adjusted more easily, with the shape of the plug etc. So changing windway height in these whistles will be the method of choice to change air requirements.

I also think that curved windway/labium whistles have a different tonal character than whistles with a straight windway/labium. But that is a different topic.

So, from my experience, enlarging the windway and window width, but keeping the window length, will create a louder, more freely playing whistle. It will of course need a bit extra air to play, and the extra air requirements may make it less comfortable for some players for high end notes. In any case the high end notes speak just as well.

Now if I increase the window length, I need to increase the air jet speed for the notes to speak. So I need to increase pressure, which may make it more uncomfortable/difficult for the high end notes. Increasing the windway height as well will increase air requirements proportionally, in order to get the required jet speed. The whistle will also be louder with the increased size of window. To compensate for extra air requirements I would reduce the windway width, so the cross section area of the windway will be the same as it was before increasing the height.

Will a whistle with a larger window length be more breathy? That all depends how smooth the jet is, I think. Turbulence causes the noise you may call “breathiness”. It can be introduced in many ways. But a longer jet would be more easily disturbed and prone to more turbulence than a shorter jet, I guess. And often whistles with a larger window length (a smaller window width to length ratio) are more noisy.

Mike, I hope that clarifies some things. I am happy to show you my whistles, if you like to come for a visit, and talk about it. Not sure if you would like my whistles though, as I prefer a purer sound, with little breathiness. But trying it out is much better than trying to describe it.

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Having tried Hans’s low whistles both before and after (and possibly been a partial catalyst for the changes?), I can vouch for that!



Without going to the extremes of davy’s whistle I would like one that would be comfortable in the second octave but would also be concerned that adjustments to a “standard” whistle, whether through a higher windway or a shortened window, would not remove breathiness in the tone.

Not sure whether you’re wanting breathiness or not, Mike, but I’d neither describe Hans’s whistles as ‘breathy’ nor class them in terms of ‘back pressure’ (that misbegotten expression!) when they almost defy description by blowing freely/easily but remaining tightly controllable (suppose ‘moderate resistance but little effort’ is about as close as you’ll get) and never ‘air-hungry’. They’ve got a lovely, complex tone (being simultaneously sweet, tight and vibrant, to throw in another trilogy of apparent contradictions), but it’s still most definitely ‘whistle’ and not ‘recorder’ (or anything else!). They’re as well tuned and balanced overall as any I’ve tried (including many of the ‘big names’) and IMHO absolutely in that top class where it’s personal preference rather than quality that’s ultimately going to determine the ‘best’. So all whistle designs (yes, even the best!) involve some degree of compromise (necessarily juggling the mutually exclusive!) somewhere and I couldn’t claim Hans’s as the exception to an immutable rule, but (for example) it’s a minor concession for me to be adapting my ‘standard’ fingerings for top C and third-octave E when even Sindts have their quirks and the Brackers are more my ‘style’ (on which note, I took one of Hans’s high Ds to a piping course recently, several good players were wowed by it, the two Sindt owners both coveted it and one of them has already bought one)…

So did I say they were good? Well, you might or might not ‘go’ for them but, since I’m building up a ‘set’ of 11 bodies on 7 heads, I probably did!

:slight_smile:

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Thanks for the replies, Hans & Peter. I’m beginning to understand a little better and I appreciate the time you’ve given me in writing. Listening to the sound samples on your web-site, Hans, I REALLY love the tone of your high whistles (I’m in definite agreement with you there, Peter) and maybe I’ll come down there some day when I have the money and try one. But, as you yourself said, the low whistles have a strong purer tone that lacks the “cosmic drainpipe” ethereal breathiness that I like in the Overton sound.

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Another oddball term! Does anyone actually know what it means? And who wants their whistles to sound like drainpipes? :wink:

But, seriously, you should try one, Mike… you might be surprised by the sound and feel close up when there’s plenty going on without that metallic wheeze (my reading of ‘cosmic drainpipe’!) you sometimes get with ‘Overton’ types.

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It’s been a common term in low whistle circles for as long as I can remember, Peter. Try Googling it. You’ll come up with loads of hits, many from 10 years ago or more. I think most low whistlers know what it means. I wouldn’t describe it as a “breathy sound” though. In fact, it’s difficult to desribe in any other terms than the phrase itself. But still, I think it’s very descriptive, and I know exactly what it means.

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I know that…

Try Googling it.

So don’t need to…

But still, I think it’s very descriptive, and I know exactly what it means.

But still think it’s an oddball term!

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Fair enough. But still, I can’t think of any other term that describes what is meant by “cosmic drainpipe”. It appears to be the only term for that particular sound, as far as I can see.

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Maybe “cosmic drainpipe” is the not the part of the Overton sound that I understand or love so much. It’s more the slightly breathy, mystical feel to the sound that I first heard in Spillane’s playing at the beginning of Riverdance. That’s what I love. An otherworldliness!! So low whistles with a solid fat tone just don’t do it for me. But I would still like to visit Hans sometime and try out his whistles, especially a narrow-bore high D!!