Lauryn Hill spanks the Pope at Vatican Christmas concert

Whistle
1

15/12/2003 22:15
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - U.S. Hip Hop

US hip-hop singer Lauryn Hill stunned leading members of the Roman Catholic Church when she accused them of moral corruption, exploitation and abuse from the stage during a Christmas concert at the Vatican.

Hill, 28, launched her diatribe in front of an audience of 7,500 guests at a packed Paul VI hall, used by Pope John Paul II for indoor public audiences. She did not sing the song listed on the program but instead sang a song about social injustice. The singer was invited to perform one piece from her repertory and one for Christmas. Hill chose “Oh Happy Day” and “Killing Me Softly” but at the last minute switched to “Damnable Heresies” and “Social Drugs,” which are unknown in Italy.

“I’m not here to celebrate, like you, the birth of Christ, but to ask you why you are not in mourning for his death in this place,” Hill said, reading from a prepared statement as she came on stage for her performance as part of a all-star gala concert.

“I don’t believe in any representative of God on Earth. I am here to tell you to repent, repent, repent,” she said as she took her turn at the microphone in the Paul VI Audience Hall.

“Holy God has witnessed the corruption of your leadership, of the exploitation and abuses which are the minimum that can be said for the clergy,” she added, calling on the hierarchy to “repent”.

Stunned hierarchy in the front row at Saturday night’s concert included one of the most senior figures in the Church, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, who is head of the Italian bishops conference.

Four other cardinals sat with Tonini in the front row, including Edmund Szoka, an American who is governor of Vatican City.

Because she spoke in English, many in the audience, which included high-ranking Vatican prelates and Italian elite closely associated with the church, did not understand what she was saying.

But those who did were shocked.

“There is something unworthy in this behavior. It is clear that the intention was to offend and create embarrassment,” said Italian Cardinal Ersilio Tonini, 89. “It is an act of unlimited rudeness. There is something inhuman about it.”

An aide to Ruini, Bishop Rino Fisichella, described the singer’s speech as “a rash outburst. An uneducated act showing a lack of respect for the place she was a guest and for those who invited her.”

The Holy See has been widely accused of failing to respond adequately to a paedophile scandal involving priests, particularly in the United States.

The US Church has been under intense fire over the policy of some archdioceses of moving known child abusing priests from parish to parish over decades.

Hill, a former member of The Fugees and winner of five Grammy Awards, said she was not speaking as a representative of any religious organisation.

Italian press reports Sunday said her attack was unlikely to be included when the concert is broadcast on Italian television on December 24, Christmas Eve.

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http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16327

You’re a day late and a dollar short, Lorenzo! :smiley:

3

Thanks blackhawk. :wink: I obviously don’t read threads with titles like “What would be Latin for ‘Who in hell invited her?’” I think I’ll leave this repeat here though, I like this title better, and besides, aren’t good times worth repeating!

Much of the history of the papacy is a very dark and strange one.

Any idea how many times popes have been captured and imprisoned throughout history? And what for?

Right now, the Vatican seems to be without clear purpose, as if still smarting from having it’s papal states taken away in the late 1800’s and being reduced to a powerless state–a sort of papal prison in itself. Why else would it get caught inviting hip hop for entertainment? The vision has apparently been lost after a couple centuries. Reason alone seems to suggest it’s nothing but a holdout for a past era that’s gone, or going, like still living in the past.

It’s strange how history unfolds (and there’s actually evidence for this)…out of ancient sources comes Egyptian mythology, out of that comes much of Judaism (although it appears to be more eclectic), out of Judaism comes Christianity, out of early Christianity comes Paul and Catholicism, out of Catholicism comes the Reformation (Protestanism), out of Protestantism comes Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, and this prepares the way for Darwinism and the posibility of evolution. And, with the rapid advancement of better science, it seems we just keep getting closer and closer all the time to understanding this universe and the way things really happened.

4

I think we should go back to the pantheon of Greek Gods. Monotheism is so last millennium.

5

How about this? The Church didn’t say anything except something like “she should be ashamed for having such rude manners” – but all the while never denying anything, never apologizing themsleves for any wrong doing anywhere ever. It begs the question of who’s being more rude?

6

There’s a line from an old Moody Blue’s song..“I’m just a singer in a rock and roll band,” that bears repeating. Why do entertainers feel that selling millions of dollars worth of a popular song makes them qualified to be philosophers, economists, statesmen and moralists? In today’s throw away pop culture people like Lauren Hill, Bono and the Dixie Chicks are here today and gone tomorrow but be damned if they’re willing to accept that they’re only singers in a band.

7

I don’t think it’s so much that they think they are qualified. She just happened to be in a rare “once in a lifetime” position. Not many have ever been blessed with such a rare opportunity. And I’m sure it will never happen again, unless of course the Vatican is experimenting with Democrazy. Imagine! What??? :laughing: I don’t think so. RC church authority would never stoop to such depths (unless of course there were a stampede by it’s herd of sheep).

8

How right you are, Lorenzo. L.H. can put a feather in her cap for that one for sure. She certainly siezed the moment.

9

Just because a person is a singer or an actor doesn’t mean they suddenly give up their beliefs, their feelings about world conditions. If I was in a position, either because I had the finances or the media attention or both, to make a difference in something I cared strongly about, I’d do it in a second. (From what I’ve heard and read about Bono’s work, he’s using his position to actually do some good in the world, not just making a one-time statement of protest. In fact, I saw an interview of a senator who had worked with Bono. He said he assumed Bono was a rock star who was trying for some “feel-good” photo op, and was very surprised to find him extremely intelligent, extraordinarily educated about the work he was proposing in Africa, with a willingness to get in and work.)

Susan

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“I’m not here to celebrate, like you, the birth of Christ, but to ask you why you are not in mourning for his death in this place,” Hill said, …“I don’t believe in any representative of God on Earth. I am here to tell you to repent, repent, repent,” she said as she took her turn at the microphone in the Paul VI Audience Hall.

If I read this right, she’s questioning the legitimacy of the Pope. While many people (including me) question him too, a Christmas Concert at the Vatican is not the place for these comments. An invited guest has a responsibility to their hosts beyond just showing up and spouting off.

While I admire her position, especially as it relates to the weak response from the Vatican to child abuse committed by priests, my admiration is greatly tempered by her exceedingly rude actions.

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As Paul says, “that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.” --quoted from Romans Chapter 1.

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The 2nd Commandment:

Protestant Bible 2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”

Catholic Bible 2. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”

Original Hebrew Scriptures 2. “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.”

“For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.” -2Thes 2:11

13

Katharine Hepburn in ‘On Golden Pond’: “Aren’t you tired of it? Bore, bore, bore.”

14

I lost ya after Walden’s post and Lorenzo’s reply with 2nd Amendment stuff…what was the point there?


:slight_smile:

-Brett

15

He’s gotten confused. The Roman Catholic editions of the Bible and Protestant editions have the same list of commandments, but the Roman catechisms and Protestant catechisms tend to number them differently, one from the other.

Douay-Rheims 10 commandments

Exodus 20
1 And the Lord spoke all these words:
2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.
8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayst be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

Authorised Version 10 Commandments

Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.


Clearly both translations have not only the same commandments, but have them versified the same.

Baltimore Catechism (Roman Catholic)

  1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before Me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them.
  2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
  3. Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
  4. Honor thy father and thy mother.
  5. Thou shalt not kill.
  6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  7. Thou shalt not steal.
  8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

Westminster Shorter Catechism (Presbyterian)

The First Commandment is, “thou shalt have no other gods before Me.”
. . .

The Second Commandment is, “thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, isiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep my commandments.”
. . .

The Third Commandment is, “thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.”
. . .

The Fourth Commandment is, “Remember the Sabbath-day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maid- servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
. . .

The Fifth Commandment is, “honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.”
. . .

The Sixth Commandment is, “thou shalt not kill.”
. . .

The Seventh Commandment is, “thou shalt not commit adultery.”
. . .

The Eighth Commandment is, “thou shalt not steal.”
. . .

The Ninth Commandment is, “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”
. . .

The Tenth Commandment is, “thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.”

The Ten Commandments from the Book of Common Prayer Catechism (Anglican)

The same which God spake in the twentieth Chapter of Exodus, saying, I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
I. Thou shalt have none other gods but me.
II. Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven image, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, and visit the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, and shew mercy unto thousands in them that love me, and keep my commandments.
III. Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his Name in vain.
IV. Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath-day. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all that thou hast to do; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. In it thou shalt do no manner of work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy maid-servant, thy cattle, and the stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.
V. Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
VI. Thou shalt do no murder.
VII. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII. Thou shalt not steal.
IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
X. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his servant, nor his maid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

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From the Catholic Encylopedia:

The Ten Commandments are precepts bearing on the fundamental obligations of religion and morality and embodying the revealed expression of the Creator’s will in relation to man’s whole duty to God and to his fellow-creatures. They are found twice recorded in the Pentateuch, in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, but are given in an abridged form in the catechisms. Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai, and by him made the ground-work of the Mosaic Law. Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity–love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5). He also simplified or interpreted them, e.g. by declaring unnecessary oaths equally unlawful with false, by condemning hatred and calumny as well as murder, by enjoining even love of enemies, and by condemning indulgence of evil desires as fraught with the same malice as adultery (Matthew 5). The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.

There is no numerical division of the Commandments in the Books of Moses, but the injunctions are distinctly tenfold, and are found almost identical in both sources. The order, too, is the same except for the final prohibitions pronounced against concupiscence, that of Deuteronomy being adopted in preference to Exodus. A confusion, however, exists in the numbering, which is due to a difference of opinion concerning the initial precept on Divine worship. The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of “Questions of Exodus” (“Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII”, Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent.. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against – the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord’s Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the final precept on concupiscence–the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods. Another division has been adopted by the English and Helvetian Protestant churches on the authority of Philo Judæus, Josephus, Origen, and others, whereby two Commandments are made to cover the matter of worship, and thus the numbering of the rest is advanced one higher; and the Tenth embraces both the Ninth and Tenth of the Catholic division. It seems, however, as logical to separate at the end as to group at the beginning, for while one single object is aimed at under worship, two specifically different sins are forbidden under covetousness; if adultery and theft belong to two distinct species of moral wrong, the same must be said of the desire to commit these evils.

The Supreme Law-Giver begins by proclaiming His Name and His Titles to the obedience of the creature man: “I am the Lord, thy God. . .” The laws which follow have regard to God and His representatives on earth (first four) and to our fellow-man (last six).

Being the one true God, He alone is to be adored, and all rendering to creatures of the worship which belongs to Him falls under the ban of His displeasure; the making of “graven things” is condemned: not all pictures, images, and works of art, but such as are intended to be adored and served (First).
Associated with God in the minds of men and representing Him, is His Holy Name, which by the Second Commandment is declared worthy of all veneration and respect and its profanation reprobated.
And He claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy (Third).
Finally, parents being the natural providence of their offspring, invested with authority for their guidance and correction, and holding the place of God before them, the child is bidden to honour and respect them as His lawful representatives (Fourth).
The precepts which follow are meant to protect man in his natural rights against the injustice of his fellows.

His life is the object of the Fifth;
the honour of his body as well as the source of life, of the Sixth;
his lawful possessions, of the Seventh;
his good name, of the Eighth;
And in order to make him still more secure in the enjoyment of his rights, it is declared an offense against God to desire to wrong him, in his family rights by the Ninth;
and in his property rights by the Tenth.
This legislation expresses not only the Maker’s positive will, but the voice of nature as well–the laws which govern our being and are written more or less clearly in every human heart. The necessity of the written law is explained by the obscuring of the unwritten in men’s souls by sin. These Divine mandates are regarded as binding on every human creature, and their violation, with sufficient reflection and consent of the will, if the matter be grave, is considered a grievous or mortal offense against God. They have always been esteemed as the most precious rules of life and are the basis of all Christian legislation.

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In the Greek, the reference to Christ’s resurrection says, to the effect, in the ending of sabbath and the beginning of sabbath, signifying the end of the old symbolical sabbath, and the beginning of the new spiritual sabbath, which is Christ, as signified in His resurrection upon the first day of the week.

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The actual historical switch from the Jewish Sabbath to the Roman Catholic sabbath (and later the Protestants who never knew the difference) was a slow process which took several generations, perhaps a couple hundred years.

The reason why the first day of the week is mentioned so much in the NT is not because anyone had authorized a change, but according to the following BORING, BORING, BORING verse…

Heb 4:
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have
sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day
on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day. from all his works

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter
therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in
because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long
a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them (another) rest, then would he
not afterward have spoken of another day.


…but rather because Roman law prohibited three Hebrew practices throughout the empire:

  1. circumcision
  2. study of the Torah
  3. worship on the Jewish sabbath

So members of the flock either scattered during the Diaspera, for freedom of worship, or worshiped in secret, or began worshiping in celebration of the resurrection instead since this wasn’t prohibited by law. I’m sure you are acqauinted with the persecution to the early Christians during this period.

As you can see in the Hebrew 4 chapter quoted above, some did not enter into the Hebrew Sabbath rest because of unbelief. But Paul, in writing to the Hebrews, says it remains (the Jewish Sabbath) for some to still enter…namely the Hebrews to whom he is writing, those who DID believe. Paul had the AUTHORITY to determine such changes of worship, as does the Holy See, apparently. Who cares anyway about the actual birthday of the earth. That’s what this is all about anyway, celebrating creation, not resurrection. GET IT? :wink:

19

For the same reason that having a pc and an internet connection does…
They’re not doing anything we don’t do here every day, they just have a bigger audience.

20

We live on a planet in a solar system that is part of a galaxies.
Our experts today estimate that there are 180 billion stars in our galaxies and that there are 150 billion galaxies in the universe and possibly much more.
Our world is like a pebble of sand on a beach and yet we claim to be the chosen beings those created by “God” in his likeness.
You see where I am going.
We have an obligation to ourselves and each other to treat the world around us and the being in it with respect.
Anything more than that is a cult. These cults have supplied us with systems and rules for living but they have also been used to generate much hatred and bloodshed but us lesser beings who try and interpret what was meant by the mystical leader or founder.
We are all entitled to believe what ever we need to in order to make sense of this world we live in but we must respect the planet and all the beings on it.