Keyed flute for jazz.. simple or boehm?

Irish Flute
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I am really loving my first flute, a keyless Copley Delrin with the squared embouchure hole. I’m liking it much more than I thought I would and my low whistles haven’t gotten much playing time since I got my flute a few weeks ago.

One thing that I was wanting to do with the whistles was to play jazz & blues. I used to play saxophone so I’d like to be able to play my sax music, which means playing in different key signatures. I’ve tried half-holing on my low whistles, for example half-holing G to get G# to play in the key of A. But it’s hard and other key signatures are even harder if not impossible. If it’s possible, either by half-holing or cross fingering, I’d like to keep at it, because I’d like to be able to play jazz without spending a fortune.

So back to flutes.. I was thinking of a chromatic whistle but then I learned that’s not really practical due to not being able to use piper’s grip and the keys at the same time. But now that I’m learning flute that opens up two other options.

the first is to get a keyed flute. I’ve spent hours searching the forums so I don’t have any questions there - I’m very happy with my copley so if I got a keyed Irish flute I’d get another one from mr. Copley. Only downside is it’s expensive and if all this is just to get keys, then why not do option 2, which is to get a boehm silver flute. I don’t need a professional one, so $1k will cover it and probably even less. That’s less than half the cost of a keyed Copley.

So the main question I have is this: Will it be difficult to switch back and forth between a boehm and my Copley? From what I read the squared ellipse hole of the Copley is similar to the boehm embouchure hole. Is that correct? I don’t want to mess myself up by playing two different flutes. I’m hoping it won’t be an issue.

If it would be easy to play both, then I’ll probably plan on getting a boehm flute. I may be able to pick up a used one even cheaper. They often have used student instruments for sale at the local music school.

On the other hand, if they’re quite different and hard to switch between them, then maybe I’ll save up for a keyed Copley, which will take a bit longer.

I don’t really need the keys for ITM, and I don’t really need to sound “Irish”, and all this is just for a hobby, so I’m thinking an inexpensive boehm flute would work.

Thanks for your advice.

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I’ve been trying to play jazz on the wooden flute for a while now and depending on the key signature it works quite well (I play an eight keyed flute). I wouldn’t want to do that on a keyless flute just by half-holing though. Half-holing works really well on the whistle if you’re practising it a lot, and I do like to play jazzy stuff on the whistle, but on the keyless flute…no thanks.

I think I’d recommend you to get a böhm flute if you don’t need/want keys for ITM. The fingering is much like on the sax and if your embouchure on the wooden flute is well developed, you won’t have major problems playing the böhm (doesn’t work like that vice versa for many people).

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Jazzflute

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Definitely get an inexpensive Boehm flute for jazz. I use my Boehm for other forms I play (classical, klezmer), but the Boehm also works well for playing Irish tunes in keys unfriendly on the keyless, e.g. Dm, Gm, F, Fm, C, Gmix, Bflat minor–you get the point. The Boehm flute is such a relatively easy flute to play compared to the Irish flute, it will respond to just about any good embouchure. Just make sure you get a decent Boehm flute; a really crappy one will not be fun to play at all. I recommend the Yamaha Advantage 200, Yamaha’s cheapest student flute. I had one for years and played gigs with it–an awesome flute for the price.

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3rd for Boehm

I’d ebay a used one from a reputable seller, closed hole, solid silver

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Why closed hole?

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Boehm. eBay.

I see your Ron Burgundy and raise you …

Feadoggie

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Why not stick with the sax for jazz - I prefer the sound of a sax in jazz to a flute.

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I haven’t played my sax in 10 years and when I try I just don’t have the embouchure for it. I played sax all through school so I guess I’m just a bit tired of it and really digging whistles & flutes. It’s a good question though. I still have my alto and I debate taking a few lessons on that to get back up to speed but it seems if I can just focus on flute I’d make more progress.

PS: Also to get a really great sound on the sax takes a long time and lots of effort. so maybe some laziness there too. Not that a great flute sound is easy, but I’m not so picky on the flute - I’m happy to get any sound. :wink:

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Thanks for the recommendation. I wasn’t sure what to get so I thought the cheapest “intermediate” flute would be ok.

do you have a model number for the advantage? I found YFL-200AD but it doesn’t seem to be available so I’m thinking maybe there is a newer Advantage model.

Thanks

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Yamaha makes nice flutes, but their current prices for student flutes are a bit high, IMO - same price range as many intermediate flutes.
Gemeinhart, Jupiter, Armstrong, make decent student flutes that are less expensive - Pearl makes a great student flute, too, for much less than the cheapest Yamaha.

Closed hole/open hole doesn’t make a huge difference in playability - if you can play a keyless conical, open holed won’t bother you, and there are a few cool things - slides, etc. - you can pull off on them you can’t on a closed hole. But when you’re looking at student flutes, the difference in price between closed and open for higher-end beginner flutes is significant, and the tone/sound difference is imperceptible. More importantly, the cost of repadding open over closed is significant - some repads of open-holed intermediate flutes are in the same range as a new closed holed student flute. I’m sitting on an intermediate silver flute (yes, it’s painful) I can’t play, because it needs a repad/overhaul.

If you can find a good music store dealer that sells used flutes in perfect new repad/warranty condition, that’s probably going to save you the most - and you may find a good Yamaha that way, too.

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sure had a way with album covers :laughing:

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Boehm system. And if you opt for open holes get an off-set g model. Much easier to play. The inline g open holed flute were made to eliminate a set of posts and a rod. Inlines were cheaper and easier to make.

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Why play a modern student flute when you can buy something wonderful for the same price?

Maybe the best thing for you would be a wooden conical Boehm system flute, which would give you something of the tone quality that you like now, with the flexibility for different keys. Works for me.

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don’t know if Yamaha has a different Advantage model. The Pearl suggestion is also a good one. Gemeinhart and Armstrong are true student flutes–very limiting and not great in my experience.

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Quality wooden Boehms are extraordinarily expensive - and not very wooden-sounding, from an ITM tone perspective. The great sound J. Madden gets on a Boehm is on a silver flute - her embouchure, and the flute’s, are what makes the difference. So, if you want a more chromatic flute for jazz, unless you have a lot of cash around, you may as well play a silver.

The advantage of playing a less-expensive student flute is that the quality of tone among the better makers’ student flutes (Pearl, Yamaha - yeah, Akiba, I agree about the student Gemeinhart and Armstrongs, after I posted…) is really pretty good these days - much better than even a few years ago. The ease of chromatic playing or truly difficult scales is really significant - it can be done on a keyed conical, but it really becomes tricky. If the OP is mostly interested in jazz playing, a silver flute of reasonable quality, in the low-price range, is probably the best bet.

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cunparis ~ The Boehm flute might be easier, cheaper to just mess about with, but don’t think that simple systems flute aren’t up to the job of playing complex music like jazz. Jean-Luc Thomas , Malo Carvou, and Calum Stewart come to mind as player that have use the keyed simple system flutes to play very complex pieces. It’s a matter of mastering the instrument. Playing the Boehm flute shouldn’t hurt playing your keyless flute. Although your keyless Copley might get jealous.

Here is a link to Jean-Luc Thomas you might enjoy ~http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBis_GDugDs&feature=related

Just a note about the cost of Keyed simple system flutes, they are a great value! " That’s less than half the cost of a keyed Copley." But a handmade, keyed simple system flute by a maker like Dave is multiple times the flute. To compare the cost of a handmade flute to a mass produced flute is unfair if you you think it’s of similar quality. A handmade wooden boehm flute would cost you over $12,000.00. Yes a keyed Copley will be more expensive, but it would be a great flute for the money.

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All this said, an inexpensive metal Boehm flute is still by far a much easier and better option.

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You have a good point there. I figure if I buy a boehm new, it will be about half the price of a keyed Copley. If I can find a Boehm used, then that’s where the Boehm gets interesting as it’d be 1/4 the cost of the Copley. This raises another question:

For playing chromatic scales and lots of accidentals, does the Boehm offer an advantage over a keyed Irish flute? Are the keys on a boehm laid out so that playing chromatic scales is easier? I’m used to the saxophone and it’s very easy to play chromatically. Boehm fingerings are simliar so I think I could pick it up quickly. For a keyed Irish flute I really don’t know.

I’m not in a hurry for this so I’ve started searching for used Boehm flutes. If I find a decent used one, I’ll give it a try. A used one could hold me over for a year which would allow me to see if I really play it a lot and find out if I can justify something more expensive.

I found a Pearl 505 for a bit less than half price. I haven’t heard back from the owner yet, but I’ll keep searching and will check the for sale ads at my daughter’s music school.

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Thanks Tjones for the Jean-Luc Thomas video link I’d not come across him before - great stuff.

Brian Finnegan also plays some nice jazzy music on concert flute and whistle.