Just temparment Reyburn whistle review

Whistle
1

I am the proud new owner of a high D/C set of Reyburn whistles (LB model), tuned with just temperment. I am no expert player, so my observations are going to be brief and highly subjective, but here goes:

First, the C/D set is really nice because the tuning slide/head is tight enough to hold while playing but not too tight that changing the whistle bodies is a hassle. The mouthpiece is very well finished–it’s the one of the new black ones, not the wood ones he used to use.

The breath requirements are actually lower than I thought they would be. In the first octave, it’s almost nothing (less than my Dixon high D), although you have to push a little in the second octave, especially to get the high D, which otherwise will honk a little (at least when I play). The C, as you would expect, is a little tricker, breathwise.

The whistles are highly responsive. I never knew what people meant when they said that, but last night when I played the few jigs I know, my speed was MUCH faster than it is on my other whistles (mainly Dixons & Shaws). Wow! There’s a hint of chiff but a really beautiful tone.

Of course, the just intonation tuning is what makes this whistles really special for me. I’m not the most play-by-ear player, and by no means have perfect pitch, but these whistles sound—how do I say it? Just a little different than equal temperment whistles. Some of the intervals are noticably different, most obviously when going up & down the scale, but they don’t sound “off,” like when a whistle is out of tune with itself.

I’m not sure how to describe it. It’s sort of like the whistles are a bit different but you can’t quite figure out why, sort of like when you see someone who usually wears glasses without them. I think I could probably play the high D in a session and still seem “in tune.” (That is, if I ever can get good enough to actually PLAY in a session, which I still sometimes doubt!). As I said, someone with perfect pitch might have more to say on this…

Ronaldo tells me this is only high D he’s made with just tempered tuning, so I feel quite privledged! I am going to Ireland next month and I think this is the whistle I’ll be bringing, because it has immediately become my favorite!

2

I have Ronaldo’s just tuned low D. (With the wooden mouthpiece.) I was cautioned that I may not be in tune with guitar players (fretted strings). I played with guitarists in a session and asked if I sounded out of tune. No one said I sounded out of tune. I’m thinking you might hear a difference if you and another whistle or accordian player play a sustained high note together. There might be a bit of warbling. I don’t know for sure. On fast tunes, no one will ever know. (How many out of tune Generations and feadogs are going around?)
Tony

3

What is tempered tuning??? What would be the difference in my Rayburn low G if it was tempered for instance? I`ve just never heard the term before. My low G seems to reflect my temper more then any whistle I own, could it be tempered? :roll:

Tom

4

I also own one of Ronaldo’s just-tuned Lo-Ds. I have owned most of the other “Big shot” Low Ds. This the only lo-D I still own. It is an astounding instrument.

There was another thread (one of mine as I recall) which had a great discussion on just temperment…what it means etc. Anyone wanting technical info about it could do a search.


I’ve always wondered if Ronaldo made a hi-D with just tuning. Hmmmm I feel a litle WhOA coming on.


Doc

5

Well that didnt tell me anything Doc except now I know there is well tempered or even tempered, just tempered, pretty hard to figure out what they mean out of context. I know the Rayburn low G is just about the most incredable whistle Ive ever played and it never stops amazing me with what it can say and how it can say it. So how can I tell what it is as far as just or well or what ever tempered. Or is this just a stupid question and should I go to my room :smiley:

Tom

6

A professional musician explained this temperament thing to me this way. When God created the musical sound range he didn’t make it a straight line. Think of it as a curved or “slanted” piece of string. It’s slanted quite a bit. Man has divided it up into notes. Let’s say we’ll divide it into 88 pieces. But there are 2 ways to divide a curved string. You can draw a straight line between the end points and then divide that line into equal parts, then make each piece of the curve the same width as the pieces of the straight line. This is equal tempering. The 88 pieces are all curved a little, each is the same width, but the lenth of the pieces of string is different from piece to piece. When music is cut into notes this way, each note is minutely “off”, but when you play a high note and the same note a few octaves away, it sounds OK…only minutely off, to where most people don’t notice it.

Another way is to divide the curve so that each piece is the same length. Now you have 88 pieces, each with same length of string, but because of the curve, the width of each section of the curve is slightly different. This is just tempering. Each note is technically correct against those around it, but when you play the same note at high and low end, they sound “off”. Equal tempering was introduced over 300 years ago to correct this “off-ness”, especially on keyboard instruments where it is most noticeable.

I’m sure experts would be appalled at the explanation.

7

OK Tom here’s a link to the former “Just-Tuning” thread.


http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=8508&highlight=justtuned

It’s jam-packed with wonderful techno-babble. Though I must admit I like E=Fbs analogy as well as anything I’ve ever heard. :smiley:


Cheers,

Doc

8

Here’s an explanation of just intonation, from another thread:

The different intervals of the musical scale, once upon a time, were based on exact mathematical relationships between the frequencies of the various pitches, according to the natural harmonics between various notes.

The most obvious, the octave, is based on ratios of 2:1. For example, frequencies of 110, 220, 440, 880, etc. will all be A in various octaves.

If you continue to construct intervals based on exact harmonic relationships of the various frequencies, you get the just intonation scale, which is:

base note = 1:1
2nd note = 9:8
3rd = 5:4
4th = 4:3
5th = 3:2
6th = 5:3
7th = 15:8
Octave = 2:1

This scale is different from the modern “equal temperament” scales in two main ways.

  1. The intervals between notes in just intonation aren’t exactly the same. There’s no exact “half step” and “whole step” that are always the same no matter where you are on the scale. Some adjacent notes are closer together, some are farther apart.

  2. You can’t use some of the notes from one just intonation key in other just intonation keys. In one just intonation key, the A (so called) will not be the same frequency as the A in some other just intonation keys.

One of the reasons equal temperament was devised in the first place was so that one instrument could be used to play music in all keys. However, in making that adjustment, the harmonics of the music were compromised, so that except for octaves, most of the intervals became only harmonically approximate and not exact.

A musician who plays a violin or other fretless instrument (slide whistle?) naturally corrects this, as do singers, when they play/sing the note that sounds perfectly spot on in harmony with the rest of the notes of the chord or melody. They can play/sing a subtly different A in each different key, but a piano cannot.

To my ear, just intonation sounds more apt, more poignant, more, well … more MUSICAL.

It’s also worth mentioning that many mass produced whistles have a third note from the bottom (F# on a D whistle) that will measure distinctly flat on an electronic tuner. That’s not necessarily a mistake in pitch. A “true” third (which would be a just intonation third) is about 13 cents flat to an equal tempered third. It would appear that in some whistles, a little of the just intonation has survived.

Best wishes,
Jerry

9

I am waiting for his off-set tube which gives A melodic minor scale on just temperament. :slight_smile:

10

Wow that is just too much. Years ago when I was a serious guitar picker I spent hours carving away on my bridge to get the harmonics dead on. I never realized that I was probably adjusting the tuning to just temperment.
Thanks for all the info guys and the link Doc. The one I found was only a short couple of posts. I will dive into this stuff tonight and probably forget it all by morning :roll:

Tom

11

Just because if you do a search you may find a post or two from me about it . . . I’ve had Ronaldo’s only just-tempered high D for 6 months or so. :wink:

He probably doesn’t remember it. Carol and I got matching just low Fs, and I got a just high D for the fun of it.

I think you will be in tune in a session, of course. Just isn’t THAT different from even temperament, but it is off enough that if you played by yourself with an instrument stuck in even temperament (like a regular whistle, or a piano, or a guitar, or a box) you might REALLY notice. Only in unison; I think harmony would sound good.

12

You’re right Sturob, I totally forgot about that Just tuned high D I made for you. Sorry if I misled you Kar, you are now the second owner of one of my Just tuned high Ds. Tom I’m glad to hear that your Low G fits your temper but its tuned to Equal temperament. Hiro I’m hoping to pick up the tubing for your minor A today.
I had a great time camping and relaxing by the Rogue river this weekend, what a magnificient river, but I’m back to work now.

Ronaldo

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So there’s another high D floating around out there? Ah, well, that’s OK…'cause I also have a high C as well! (I got a high C/D set). So perhaps I have the only high C just intonation whistle out there!

Now I’m starting to like these whistles so much I don’t think I will take them on my trip to Ireland because I’d be miserable if they got lost or stolen, and you never know how secure things are when travelling. I’ll probably bring my easily-replaceable Dixon.

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Now I’m sure your right about the Just tuned C Kar. You’re the one and only at this time. Enjoy your exclusivity.

Ronaldo

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Ronaldo,
let me take this opportunity to say how much I enjoy your whistles. I acquired a D/C set by trade recently (just equal, not just, all though I’d like a just equally well). I am experimenting a lot with whistles that offer littler or no resistance, andyours are among them. They do need more air than a back-pressure whistle, but it is not uncomfortable. The sound is just wonderful and they play crisply and sweetly. I particularly like the C-body because it has a bit of a growl mixed into the sweet tone.

Great whistles, imho.

16

OK I think I’m getting the hang of just temperament.
So do G tunes played on a D whistle with just tuning sound off?

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No, a G tune on a Just tuned D whistle should not sound off.

Assuming my computations are correct…

Aside from the C natural issue, if you play a G major scale on a Just tuned D whistle, it will have Just temperament for the G scale except for E (the 6th note in the G scale), which will have a ratio of 27:16 of the base note (G) instead of the 5:3 required for Just temperament. However, 27:16 is so close to 5:3 that the difference would probably not be noticeable.

18

You’re right, Ridseard. The Just tuning becomes more of an issue the further you move away from the home-key (or tonic, as they say in the business). Distance is measured in fifths along the circle of fifths. G is just one fith away and no problem. Notice by the way that the basic chords of a cadence, I-IV-V or D-G-A in D-major and C-F-G in C-major are each just one fifth away from the tonic: the IV (or subdominant) is a fifth blow the tonic, and the V is a fifth above.

In the days of just temprament, the further you moved away from the home key the more out of tune you got. On a harpsichord or organ tuned in C you could do F and G and even D and Bb, but once you started moving beyond it, you’d run into trouble. J.S. was very interested in temparaments and tunings and while the equal temprament hadn’t been invented, he supported an innovative temprament of the day and wrote the Well-tempered Clavier to promote it (it has a prelude & fuge in each of the 23 keys, which you wouldn’t want to do AT ALL on a just-tuned clavier).

Here is the circle of fifth (all in major). Start reading in the middle (C). Notice that it is a circle only in equal temparament, because F#=Gb and it starts looping around at either end.

F#=Gb - Db - Ab - Eb - Bb - F - C - G - D - A - E - B - F#=Gb

19

:confused: My Brain Hurts :confused:

Does this hold true for Em too?

Just noticed the latest version of the Tuner_e program can be set for just intonation.
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
Will try it out when I get a chance. Too late tonight though.

20

Yes. All the modes relative to G will sound fine. I think E will only be about 1/5 of a semitone sharp, which shouldn’t be a bother.