I have always been interested in Irish music, but it pretty much has been Irish drinking songs. Now that I took up the whistle, I’ve started seeing Jigs and Reels at most sites I visit. I was just wondering what exactly makes something a jig or a reel?
A jig is a tune in 6/8 and a reel is a tune in 2/4 or 4/4. A jig is more “Irish sounding” to “outsiders.”
-Ross
Jigs and reels … and hornpipes, and polkas, and flings, and slides, and whatever, are the dance tunes of irish music, and make up the core of ‘Irish Trad’ (as opposed to the traditional music of ireland, as a descriptor instead of a title, which is a bit more inclusive… )
Anyway, while jigs and reels are original dance tunes, they have evolved into a playing/listening form of music, but the tunes are still distinguished by the ‘kind of dance’ that they are for, because that makes up the core rhythm of the tune.
Every reel I’ve seen has been in 4/4 time, but is played with a rhythm more like it was in 4/8 time. ‘DAA-dee-da-da DAA-dee-da-da’ (shyeah, like that helps… well, you can try reading it as I’m hearing it, okay? 
)
Single jigs are in 3/8 time, double jigs are in 6/8 (or 3/4, if you want) time and slip jigs are in 9/8 time, with appropriate rhythms to those times, more or less.
Hornpipes are also written in 4/4 time but mostly played as if they were in 2/8 time. (DAA-de-DAA-de-DAA-de… ) and sometimes are written as strings of 1/8th notes and sometimes written as alternating dotted eighths and sixteenths… hornpipe time is some kind of compromise between those two notations.
Finally, all of this is worthless (except inasmuch as you know what to listen for) since it’s essentially impossible to learn irish rhythm without listening to it. Fortunately, this is an exceedingly enjoyable activity. You might check for a session in your area… even though you might not have any trad tunes down yet yourself, you can go listen to some! (My opinion, inappropriate un-humble for a beginner, is that to be really good, trad music has to be live, but don’t get me started on my recorded-music-is-bad rant, it could be ugly )
Oh, and why you should care: As an instrumentalist, the tunes stand on their own and are great fun to play! (That’s the -most- important part!) While I do like the pub tunes (and pfffft! to anybody who looks down their nose at me for it! and it’s -pennywhistle-! cough pardon me, got carried away. )
Uhm, wikipedia (www.wikipedia.com) has entries on both jig and reel, not sure about hornpipe or polka; and an irish polka is decided -not- a beergarden polka - though they are simpler tunes, they’re not that banal. (Okay, mainland polkas aren’t really that banal either, they just get musicians to play them in a deliberately mediocre and banal style as an ongoing joke in Hollywood, but hey, that’s a hard lifelong stereotype to overcome!)
Hope this helps!
–Chris
–Chris
Thanks for your help. That was most informative. As far as live music is concerned, it is quite hard to find traditional Irish music in my small Indiana town, especially since I am not old enough to go into the local pubs.
Ahhh… L.E. McCullough, a well known trad whistle player (especially to those of us with his tutorials) is based in Indiana. You might want to pick up his 121 Favorite Irish Session tunes, which most of us think are ‘odd’ settings, but they might well be the Indiana settings!
His web page is at:
http://members.aol.com/feadaniste/
I’m not sure what the nearest city to you is, but if you can get there, you might find an trad music at Irish cultural centers, you might find that you can go into daytime sessions on Sunday afternoons, and you might find dances where you can here trad music being played in a dance setting.
Here’s a list that includes some all-ages friendly sessions, snagged from http://www.siegelproductions.ca/jam.htm
Bloomington, Banneker Community Center, 930 W. 7th St., Slow Session, Saturday, 4-6 p.m. books1a
Bloomington, Border’s Bookshop, Eastland Plaza, 2634 East Third St., first Friday of the month, 7-9 p.m. No pints, no smoking, but kids most welcome.
Bloomington, The Irish Lion, 212 W. Kirkwood, first block West of the town square on the north side of Kirkwood Ave., upstairs,
Sunday, 5 p.m., (309) 336-9076. Phone to confirm. Food, kids welcome, smoking allowed.
Irish trad music session
Mondays, 7:30 PM @ Lucca Grill
116 W. Market Street, Bloomington IL
309-828-7521
Free
Fort Wayne, Mad Anthony Brewing Co.,1109 Taylor St., 2-5 alternating Sundays of the month. Beginner/slow session. Contact: iupiper@fwi.com Indianapolis, Golden Ace Inn, 2533 E. Washington St., Trad. Session, Tuesday, 7:30 - 10:30 p.m.
[ This Message was edited by: ChrisA on 2002-06-30 20:43 ]
When you say ‘setting’ you are referring to what classical instrumentalists call an arrangement, right? I’ve seen that term a couple of times and I’m just wondering. I assume that it’s not called an arrangement because there is so much personalizing via the ornamentation that it’s not really arranged in the classical sense.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
On 2002-06-30 20:11, Duckrasta wrote: Thanks for your help. That was most informative. As far as live music is concerned, it is quite hard to find traditional Irish music in my small Indiana town, especially since I am not old enough to go into the local pubs.
Hey Duckrasta, If you’re anywhere near Bloomington, Indiana (within 60 miles or so), send me an email (bretton@yahoo.com) and I’ll fill you in on all the traditional Irish happenings in the area if you’d like. I’m not that great of a whistle player, but I’d be happy to give you a few pointers if you’re in the area, and direct you to my whistle teacher who’s really great (Grey Larsen).
edited for: P.S. I think L.E. McCullough has moved on to New York, NY so he isn’t in Indianapolis, Indiana regularly anymore.
edited a 2nd time for: The ‘odd’ L.E. settings mentioned by another poster do creep into things from time to time, but haven’t taken over or anything. They are prominent (from what I know) at the Indianapolis session at the “Ace”.
-Bretton
[ This Message was edited by: Bretton on 2002-06-30 23:02 ]
I’m about 2.5 hours away from Bloomington, but do make occasional trips out there.
By the way the “small Indiana town” is a bit of an exaggeration and an inside joke. I’m from Richmond.
[ This Message was edited by: Duckrasta on 2002-06-30 23:07 ]
On 2002-06-30 21:06, FJohnSharp wrote:
When you say ‘setting’ you are referring to what classical instrumentalists call an arrangement, right? I’ve seen that term a couple of times and I’m just wondering. I assume that it’s not called an arrangement because there is so much personalizing via the ornamentation that it’s not really arranged in the classical sense.Correct me if I’m wrong.
You’re close enough!
Usually, an ‘arrangement’ (as I understand it) decides where to transpose the melody to, and what accompaniment to give it. Irish trad is a strictly melody tradition, excepting the bodhran, and the drones and regulators on pipes… okay, it’s a popular myth that Irish trad is a strictly melody tradition! An-yway, ‘settings’ in Irish trad are essentially variations on the melody, mostly but not exclusively in how to ornament; also, of course, we whistle players often have to worry about transposing vs. tune folding vs. playing up an octave to deal with things that our instrument can’t play. So, there’s some technical difference but I think not as much difference as the difference between ‘arranging’ as done in blues vs jazz vs standards vs orchestral, so on the other hand, yes, you’re exactly right after all.
(Now why couldn’t I have said that in the first place, I bet you wonder… )
–Chris
PS: On further reflection, it occurs to me that another reason for the difference in terms, is that settings largely originate from the fact that Irish trad is a primarily aural tradition, so perhaps the difference in terms also reflects that settings are not necessarilly a conscious act… an arrangement was arranged by someone, but a setting just is… obviously, someone introduced the changes at some point, but as like as not it was by mishearing or misremembering the tune, or by changes in reconstituting the melody from ornaments on a different instrument, or just a slip of the fingers that sounded better than the handed-down version and so was kept deliberately after!
[ This Message was edited by: ChrisA on 2002-06-30 23:21 ]
On 2002-06-30 19:38, ChrisA wrote:
Every reel I’ve seen has been in 4/4 time, but is played with a rhythm more like it was in 4/8 time. ‘DAA-dee-da-da DAA-dee-da-da’ (shyeah, like that helps
Single jigs are in 3/8 time, double jigs are in 6/8 (or 3/4, if you want) time
If you look in O’Neill’s (Krassen version) you will find that the reels are written in cut or 2/2 time. The symbol for this is a C with a slash through it. This is an appropriate way of writing the time signature. 4/8 is not, at least as long as the conventional measure division is observed. Jigs are in 6/8 time but time signatures are not fractions. You cannot simply divide them in half and get 3/4. 6/8 is compound meter and 3/4 is simple meter. One is jig time and the other waltz time. As for 3/8, I think you will find nothing writtin in it. Slides are often written in 12/8.
Steve
It has correctly been pointed out that jigs are in 6/8 time and reels are in confusingly written in a variety of time signatures. Whatever time signature a reel is written in there is a feeling of four notes of the smallest note value getting a beat. (Da da da da)(Da da da da)-where the parentheses indicate a single beat. So you would tap your foot on the first Da in each set of parentheses.
To get a feel for these think of Pop Goes the Weasel which is jig time. It is more like a single jig than a double jig though.
Here is a place you can listen to a slow MIDI of a single jig which usually goes. You’ll get the idea.
http://www.scottish-fiddle.com/nancy_dawson.htm
Here are some words that could be put to a double jig.
(Bry an O)(Linn had no)(watch for to)(wear so he)(took an old)(tur nip and)(cut it out)(square da da). You would tap your foot on the first syllable within each set of parentheses. Try that emphazizing the place where you tap your foot and you will get the feeling of a double jig. There are three notes per beat most of the time in a double jig but there may be some spots of two notes-(Da da da)(Daaa da).
Steve
On 2002-07-01 05:52, SteveK wrote:
If you look in O’Neill’s (Krassen version)
I have the mel bay version… but okay.
4/8 is not, at least as long as the conventional measure division is observed.
What I meant by this, is that since the rhythm is, in 1/8th notes, ‘DA-da-da-da’, that it makes more sense (to me, anyway) to put 4 8th notes in a measure… apparently this is not going to make sense to the rest of the world, but I’m not sure why this doesn’t convey (something like) reel rhythm?
Jigs are in 6/8 time but time signatures are not fractions. You cannot simply divide them in half and get 3/4. 6/8 is compound meter and 3/4 is simple meter. One is jig time and the other waltz tim
Well… in time-per-measure they -are- fractions (6 eighth notes is the same time as 3 quarter notes) … and I’ve seen abc’s in 3/4 time for this reason… But, yes, I can see why it’s ‘wrong’ for conveying meter.
As for 3/8, I think you will find nothing writtin in it. Slides are often written in 12/8.
This one confuses me… if a double jig with a DAA-da-da-Da-da-da rhythm is in 6/8 and a slip jig with a DAA-da-da-Da-da-da-Da-da-da rhythm is in 9/8 then why isn’t a single jig with a DA-da-da rhythm in 3/8?
–Chris, being confused.
Flaw in your question – if a single jig was one set of Dah-dah-dahs, and a double jiog two sets of Dah-dah-dah’s, then a slip jig would have to be called a “triple jig,” and I don’t recall encountering that term before. Would that make a “slide” a quadruple jig? Or a polka a half a reel?
On 2002-07-01 10:56, tomandceil wrote:
Flaw in your question – if a single jig was one set of Dah-dah-dahs, and a double jiog two sets of Dah-dah-dah’s, then a slip jig would have to be called a “triple jig,” and I don’t recall encountering that term before. Would that make a “slide” a quadruple jig? Or a polka a half a reel?
No. A slide is typically written in 12/8, but I have seen transcriptions of slides/single jigs in 4/4 and 2/4 time as well.
Ultimately, slides are a question of feel. To learn the subtleties, you should really spend a lot of time listening to Kerry music.
Polkas are a later addition to the tradition, starting in the early 1900s.
[ This Message was edited by: Pat Cannady on 2002-07-01 11:07 ]
On 2002-07-01 10:51, ChrisA wrote:
[As for 3/8, I think you will find nothing writtin in it. Slides are often written in 12/8.
This one confuses me… if a double jig with a DAA-da-da-Da-da-da rhythm is in 6/8 and a slip jig with a DAA-da-da-Da-da-da-Da-da-da rhythm is in 9/8 then why isn’t a single jig with a DA-da-da rhythm in 3/8?
It confuses me too. Maybe a dancer could discuss the distinction between single jigs and double jigs because I get the impression that it has something to do with dancing. However, the rhythm of a single jig is (Daaa da)(Daaa da) not Da-da-da. At any rate, if you look at sheet music double jigs and single jigs are written in 6/8. That’s just convention, of course.
Steve
[ This Message was edited by: SteveK on 2002-07-01 11:11 ]
On 2002-07-01 10:56, tomandceil wrote:
Flaw in your question – if a single jig was one set of Dah-dah-dahs, and a double jiog two sets of Dah-dah-dah’s, then a slip jig would have to be called a “triple jig,” and I don’t recall encountering that term before. Would that make a “slide” a quadruple jig? Or a polka a half a reel?
I was hoping for answers, not questions… But, AFAIK the only reason a slip jig isn’t called a triple jig is because the rhythm has some weird properties… if a strings player (esp. accompaniment guitar… I think fiddlers have a fair amount of flexibility to their bowing choices) plays it through with up-down-up-down strokes, when it repeats they’re on the wrong stroke and have to play it through down-up-down-up … I imagine this affects the dance too, if you start on your right foot the first time, you do it again with your left foot starting. For both strings and dancers, of course, there’s always the option of trying to sneak in some sort of doubling or skipping to put it back on track.
Anyway, that’s the strangeness of slipjigs as it was explained to me, but I neither play strings nor know the dances, so, take it fwiw.
–Chris
On 2002-07-01 10:51, ChrisA wrote:
What I meant by this, is that since the rhythm is, in 1/8th notes, ‘DA-da-da-da’, that it makes more sense (to me, anyway) to put 4 8th notes in a measure
4/8 would mean 1/8 per beat and 4 beats per measure - which is definitely not reel rythm (4 x slower than a reel).
2/2 is the correct answer: 1/2 = 4/8 per beat, 2 beats per measure.
Well… in time-per-measure they -are- fractions >
ABCs are often wrong.
6/8 is Da-da-da Da-da-da = 2 x 3/8 = Jig
3/4 is Da-da Da-da Da-da = 3 x 2/8 = Waltz
- completely different.
[ This Message was edited by: claudine on 2002-07-01 11:38 ]
FJohn,
Arrangement and setting are two different things. I’ll use the reel Drowsy Maggie as an example. There are two very common settings of the tune. The A parts are identical, while the B parts are different and distinct melodies. Paddy O’Brien’s collection of 500 tunes (on 12 tapes) has 4 different settings of Drowsy Maggie.
Also it is possible to have different arrangements of the same setting. The Chieftains have a powerful and energy filled arrangement of Clan March of the O’Sullivans that was on a movie sound track or two. I like what they did with it. When I got Catherine McEvoy’s CD, I saw that this tune was on it. I listened to the CD and missed the track because her more traditional arrangement was so beautiful and melodic. When I listened to that track specifically, I was shocked to find that the melodies played in each were nearly note for note.
Duckrasta,
I second the suggestion of L.E. McCullough’s 121 Favorite Irish Session Tunes. I find it better than the Waltons/Mel Bay series 110 Best Irish Session/Tin Whistle/Fiddle tunes. There are several reasons I think L.E.’s work is better for a beginner. The tunes are clustered by tune type (2 reel only CD’s, a jig only CD, and another CD with hornpipes and other tune types clustered together. It should accelerate your learning to recognize different rhythms faster. The tunes are played at slow and session speeds (slower than most sessions though). It makes it easier to play tunes well when you can start slow. L.E. says the name of each tune before he goes into the slow version. That certainly helps me recognize many names of tunes I don’t know how to play yet, so I know what tunes to learn for a particular session (Hey they just played “The Walls of Liscaroll” or something like that). And lastly, the distortion (like reverb or echo) in the 110 series really sounds cheesy to me. That is just a personal preference, though. I do find a lot of value with the 110 series, but I think beginners will find more utility from L.E.’s 121 F.I.S.T.
I would also suggest listening to simple recordings with 1-3 melody instruments and thin or absent harmony. Show bands (like Solas, for one) put out recordings with some great music on them, but the experimentation with rhythm and rich harmony give the beginner too many things to listen to. Also while they are firmly based on a solid traditional music foundation, they go in directions that you will never find at a session. I listen to show bands for enjoyment, not learning tunes. You can pick up some nice techniques from the show bands. Save that for later when you have enough tunes under your belt, would be my suggestion. Knowing enough tunes keeps practice interesting.
One of the best recent recordings, IMHO, is “It’s No Secret” by S.C. “Hammy” Hamilton, Con O’Drisceoil and Seamus Creagh. Other musicians I might suggest listening to are as follows:
Jack Coen & Fr. Charlie Coen - flute & concertina
Mike Rafferty and Mary Rafferty - flute and accordion (mostly)
Gearóid ÓhAllmhuráin - concertina
Joe Burke -accordion & flute
Charlie Lennon - fiddle
Bobby Casey - fiddle
Paddy Canny - fiddle
Josie McDermott - whistle & flute
There are also some really nice compilations of old 78 rpm recordings. “Milestone at the Garden” and “From Galway to Dublin” come to mind. They have well written and thick liner notes (30 pages or more. “Milestone” is an excellent introduction to regional fiddle styles.
The time signature/rhythm issue is sorting itself out well, but needs a bit more work. Maybe some of the more learned posters could work that one out for the umpteenth time. I certainly don’t want to complicate matters worse.
MJ
O.K., things are getting worse since I started writing my last post.
Let’s start with some basic music theory. The note duration is relative, not absolute. A note that takes half of a second to play can be a note of any musical duration: whole note, half note, quarter note, eighth note, or even a one-hundred and twenty-eighth note. The tempo of the musical piece determines how long, in real time, that each note lasts. Tempo and note duration are completely independent from one another, yet they are both used simultaneously when a piece is played to make music.
JIGS - WHAT THEY HAVE IN COMMON:
Single jigs, double jigs, slip jigs, and slides all have the eighth note as the basic note duration. (there are exceptions, but they are few and eclectic)
JIGS - WHAT MAKES THEM DIFFERENT:
Single jigs and double jigs both have 6/8 time signatures. You can tell them apart because they usually have 8 measure A parts and 8 measure B parts. In Single jigs you play the A part once and go into the B part which is played once, then you repeat. In double jigs, you play the A part twice and the B part twice, then you repeat. Some double jigs also have one part that is a melody that takes 16 measures to finish, so that part is not repeated. To complicate this some more some jigs have more than just A and B parts (some frequently played session jigs like the Golden Ring or The Frieze Britches have up to 7 parts, identified A, B, C, D, E, F, and G). They are differentiated between double and single jigs by repeating or not repeating the parts before going on the the next part.
Slipjigs, to an untrained listener, sound like double jigs with 12 measures per part instead of 8. They are not. These tune types all have three eighth notes per beat, but Double (and single) jigs have two beats per measure, whereas slipjigs have three. The first beat of each measure is emphasized most frequently in slipjigs. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as triple jig.
Even though slides have beats of three eighth notes per measure with the typical jig swing, slides sound more similar to polkas than to the other jigs, and they are often played in sets together. I don’t play enough slides to be able to comment on them further.
I believe my account is correct, if anyone more learned poster has any better support on this, please stop laughing at me getting sucked into this thread and jump in yourself.
On 2002-07-01 12:46, Mark_J wrote:
JIGS - WHAT MAKES THEM DIFFERENT:
Single jigs and double jigs both have 6/8 time signatures. You can tell them apart because they usually have 8 measure A parts and 8 measure B parts. In Single jigs you play the A part once and go into the B part which is played once, then you repeat. In double jigs, you play the A part twice and the B part twice, then you repeat.
If your are saying that the number of times a part is repeated defines the difference between a single jig and a double jig, I don’t think so. I have just listened to some single jigs-one on a Sean Ryan album. He repeats the parts. Another is at the following web site. Listen to the single jig-Stoney Batter set and compare it with the available double jig (Sean Bui). The single jig has repeated parts. There is a different feel to the tunes though. The single jig has lots of parts where the predominant pattern of notes is quarter-eighth whereas the double jig has a predominant pattern of eighth-eighth-eighth.
http://brianmcnamara.irish-music.net/BMtrack8.htm
Steve