I’ve had regular lessons on whistle (and now flute) with a couple of very good traditional Irish musicians for a couple of years. They both stressed playing rolls very even and on the beat. They also both stress playing reels in a fairly straight way (not much swing).
This past weekend I attended Mary Bergin’s workshop at the St. Louis festival. Mary worked with us on rolls and strongly encouraged us to hold the first note of the roll, making the 2nd and 3rd notes of the roll shorter. She also encouraged us to play reels with what I would have previously considered an almost horn pipe rhythm. She said there was very little difference between reels and horn pipes.
Is there a wrong or right here? Is this just a case of players from different regions in Ireland playing with different styles?
-Brett
P.S. I just noticed this is my “number of the beast” posting.
Is there a wrong or right here? Is this just a case of players from different regions in Ireland playing with different styles?
There are a probably quite a few wrong ways, but there are many right ways too
Some people would argue that there are no such things as regional styles. However, there are certainly marked differences between different places, and between different individuals. You may also see the same person playing with different speed, rhythm and phrasing depending on context e.g. in a performance as opposed to a session. And even if you discount styles not based directly on playing for dancers, there are still lots of differences in regional dance styles, speeds and tune types.
Warning: grain of salt to be taken with the following.
It could be that Mary B. was not so much “correcting a wrong” as offering up new approaches to expand your horizons, but I wasn’t there. I do rolls in both the ways you mentioned, Bretton, and it all depends on what I’m going for in a tune.
Some reels sound better (to me) when played with swing, others seem at their best played with drive, and some have the wonderful capacity to benefit from more than one way of going at it. Hornpipes are the same. Sometimes it’s hard to tell them apart, especially if a hornpipe is played “smoothed out”, or a reel is played with swing.
I find that the delayed roll serves well in just about any case (but will give reels a particular flavor; nothing wrong with that), whereas the even roll seldom sounds right to me in even the most flattened-out hornpipes. Hornpipes just beg for triplets, and the delayed roll follows that timing.
I think early on (5 years ago…not that long, I know) I got the impression that putting too much swing into your playing was a sure sign of someone who “didn’t get it.” My main musical background before starting to learn trad. Irish was playing Jazz sax and I found I had to try very hard not to “jazz things up.”
Maybe I’ve been trying too hard and I need to loosen up a bit!
FWIW, Bretton, my taste runs to less swing, or at least subtle swing when it comes to reels. I prefer drive in most cases. A sure sign of Old Time style -as opposed to ITM- is MAJOR syncopation in your reels, and hornpipes played fast and flat. That sort of thing tends to be at odds with what goes on in trad-dedicated sessions, if that’s where you want to do some playing.
It is quite common to play reels with syncopation, and varying degrees of it from a slight swing to full-blown humpty-dumpty-humpty-dumpty. Ditto for jigs, by the way: sometimes the first note of each triplet is played as if dotted, more of an AMSTERDAM ASTERDAM rather than a BUMBLEBEE BUMBLEBEE. I tend to play the A part of the Rolling Wave like that.
On the concertina side of things, I think just about every reel I heard from Noel Hill was syncopated. This was both when he taught us tunes, and when I heard him play either in concert or on CD.
I don’t know jack about regional differences, tho I have a feeling that swing and speed are a bit at odds with one another. Swing helps to make a tune interesting at lower speeds, and at higher speeds I have an easier time easing up on the syncopation. Maybe this would tie into regional differences in speed.
As for “drive” vs “swing”, I dunno. Noel Hill plays syncopated in 5th gear, and woy geez!
If you want to get someone really upset, suggest to them that the straight-laced hard on the beat style is from the Scottish tradition. It is also common in the Northwest Irish style, which has very close connections to Scottish style. The swing style used to be more associated with southern-western Irish styles, and was especially noticible in ceihli band music. I have noticed that people from Dublin are now very much into the hard on the beat style as well, so I agree it really depends on who you are talking to and where they come from whether they insist on one way or the other. Neither is new. I suspect we are getting the taste of a very old internal argument in Ireland.
Ah, but you see, the type of swing people use in jazz is different from the swing people use when people use in IRtrad. Despite being both described as “swing” they are different rhythms ultimately.
Here’s another thread that has something to do with straight playing and swingy playing
Miko Russell is dead but I would not say that too much icing on a bad cake makes it any better - would you?
Mary was playing well before Miko R was heard of, and do you know what? nobody outside of Ireland ever heard of her, never mind heard her in person at that time.
Joe Cooley, the Russels and a few more oddballs put Irtraq on the map BECAUSE they were better at it. A good cake does not need any additional ingredients!
See it is that simple. Listen to Paddy Canny |(fiddler) listen to Ennis ( pipes ) and FGS listen to yourself! IOW slow down!
The likes of Mary and her ilk put many a fine player to drink but inspired nothing but more of the same …CCE - No heart, no soul and therefore by reason of falling over the truth - no goldanged body either.
Which explains why Reels and Hornpipes have the same rhythm to some folks. I would not like to try that one on an EFDS person, nor on a Higland Piper. However if we are waffling on about it, when the tune is smothered with too much baggage how the blueblazes could a person know what rhythm if any they are playing.
Perhaps its a little of the one and too much of the other…
As usual, I asked questions before consulting my own reference materials, only to find a pretty good answer to them sitting right in front of me.
Grey Larsen’s book (pgs. 40-42, 210-213) covers swing (aka lilt or sway) very nicely, and he mentions many of the things posted above. I think I had read this section but probably wasn’t paying enough attention.
I feel much better about the issue after reading the postings and re-reading Grey’s section on the subject.
the link above is from a brad hurley post. i can remember slowing down the bothy band cut on a turntable from 33 1/3 rpm to 16 rpm [ no cool edit in those days. [why i remember walking to school 5 hours before we went to sleep, uphill both ways in the snow…] ooops sorry! anyway as i was saying, what i noticed was the inherent swing in their playing. the notes were going by too quickly to pick anything else up. slow it down and check it out.
This is an enlightening lesson. The last time I played Mary Bergin’s first CD I slowed it down about 20% and I really enjoyed it. Usually that CD leaves me breathless but somehow unsatisfied. Slowing it down helped me appreciate it on a different level.
Mike
hear hear!!!
(or should that be hear here??)
Long reign Mary, Queen of Whistle ( Talk about learning from the source -I love her playing, and she is an excellent teacher!!)
