… yes, and it would be a sad, sad thing too. 
I’m trying not to be offended by that, but I am afraid I am failing.
Obviously this is something I feel strongly about. I believe that the notions of ‘professionalism’ and the related issues of compensation that arise are among the most serious threats to our musical tradition.
One huge downside of having and trying to support/protect a “professional” class of fulltime paid purveyors of traditional music is that one immediately enters a market economy of musical choices, and in that arena the forces of popularization, marketing, and property rule. These forces run contrary to the mainstream of the tradition. The laudable few who have managed to swim upstream and “popularize” forms of musical expression which are deeply traditional are still rarely able to make a living from it.
That is not to say that populist/popularization of traditional music is itself bad, but when one begins to view fulltime performance of ‘traditional music’ as a primary model, one risks cutting the music off from its lifeblood.
We live in a spectator, consumer culture, and notions of market, protectionism, regulation, and intellectual property are ingrained. It may not be obvious that they can be a danger to the music we love, but they often are.
I really am not trying to be dualist, but the problem does exist and there doesn’t seem to be a happy solution to it.
My issue with “the problem” has much to do with the terms in which it is cast. If the problem is one of fair compensation for one’s contributions, or of lowest-bidder economics, it’s certainly not unique to commercial music. Drawing these sharp distinctions amounts to building walls between “music professionals” and other musicians (or would-be musicians and lovers of music). Doing this in an effort to safeguard the livelihood of those who have chosen music as a profession, not just an avocation, is “cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face”.
Bill
[*] or even drawing sharp distinctions…
Bill, I apologize for any offense, it certainly was not intended. I guess I am not making my point well enough. All I meant was ‘wait until it happens to you’. Pipemakers do not make enough as it is to really earn a living (at least a comfortable one) without someone underbidding them. Hell, we’ve seen some evidence of it happening in this forum for pete’s sake.
It is obvious we’ll not agree on this matter for the present, if not for the future. So I am willing to “agree to disagree”.
Please, accept my apologies for any offense.
The discussion does not matter. In a free market situation, which is the situation we’re in, busineses are compelled to get the best for the lowest cost. Their best might not be THE best. Doesn’t matter.
In my region, there are a lot of GHB pipers who contract for weddings and such (myself included). The competition is tight and it has been noted that sometimes younger or less able players who charge less get the gigs. It doesn’t feel nice, but that’s the way things are: why complain about the rain? One nice thing about the heavy competetition emphasis in the GHB world is that we can site our accomplishments before a judge when advertising.
History has supported artists through patronage (wealthy folks add to their own prestige by supporting the livelihood of an artist or musician). Too bad that’s not going on any more, although I’d hate to be at someone’s beck and call like some court jester.
The market only has enough space at the top for a limited number of musicians to make their living through performing and teaching music. People of any skill level who charge less are not undermining the market: they’re serving a natural function in a free market economy. When the kid down the block gets the GHB wedding gig instead of me because he charges less (and I know he is less skilled), it’s up to me to lower my price or advertise better.
I’m not quitting my day job! Although I confess I have often considered how nice it would be to make a living in music. Maybe when I retire…
DJones
… but when one begins to view fulltime performance of ‘traditional music’ as a primary model, one risks cutting the music off from its lifeblood.
This is brilliant and perhaps the most important sentence in the whole discussion.
IMHO, what you have quoted Lewis seems to do a lot to cut ITM off from its lifes blood. Seriously, if the music is kept to such a low profile how can it survive? The ‘old guard’ of ITM is thinning out, life and aging tends to do that to a population, when they are all gone who then will keep it going? A secret society of ITM monks?
And just how does full time performance of ITM risk cutting it off from its own life’s blood? Honestly, that statement seems a little thin and empty to me.
If you would look where the music lives in it’s natural habitat, in Ireland, you would notice more people than ever before play traditional music. and very well too. And that has nothing at all to do with professionalism or performance. It has to do with music and it’s place in social life or culture or whatever. In recent weeks I have played in old people’s home for an 80th birthday, I have played as part of a duo and as part of a group playing for sets for the recording of a dvd, for a fundraising concert, for my own enjoyment, as guest playing for and with a group of learners, in the kitchen of a neighbour etc etc. At all functions there were other musicians playing as well, at some quite a few including full time ones like Jackie Daly. There were no fees or any material rewards in doing any of this and yet I would think of all occasions as highly beneficial to keeping the music going because Joseph that’s where the lifeblood of the music is: with the people it came from.
One thing I really loved about Irish music is how people get together to just play for the joy of it no $$$ involved. I think this is essentially the spirit of the music. You just get together and play for the fun and to relax. I have great respect for people making a living off the music and their highly developed talent. I do see a contradiction when a professional cries foul because some people want to get together to play for the fun of it in a social environment like a pub causing the professional to get mad. Around where I live the number of people who play for the fun of it is growing. I don’t think that is a bad thing just an evolution.
My conclusion is the venue is the problem. Most people get together to play music at pubs for fun not money. If they do get some money it is not enough to matter. I think the evolution will favor finding more venues and breaking out of the pub scene more for a full time musician to solely rely on music. When I got out of art school I started a business, subcontracted, and made my art to pay the bills all at the same time. You gotta be creative in a creative profession, sometimes one revenue source is not enough.
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- Jason
Yes, I agree with every thing you have pointed out in the quote above. I do not however, live in the music’s birthplace, Eire and I was relating my experiences in the US where I used to make a living playing the music and serving as accompaniment for others.
I am not saying that getting together with fellow musicians in a pub for a session is wrong or is driving me out of work or it has got to stop… I’d like to see more of it in fact, even though I have my own issues with sessions.
I am saying that in the places where I worked (and it is work), the places that advertised Irish music as entertainment during the evenings of weekends, the trend has been to go for the lowest bidder. From what I witnessed, the majority of these people didn’t rely on their music for their chief source of income and (with the exception of a very few ), the quality of their musicianship was bordeline atrocious.
There are still a good many places for ITM ‘gigs’, at least to the best of my knowledge. But there are also many that have given up the ghost. J.D. McGurks in St. Louis was a hotbed of ITM at one time and one of the many places I haved played in that were. I’m not certain if it is still that way since Joe Burke (who I understand did most if not all of the booking) left, but I have heard it isn’t the same. At least the entertainment is still payed well, compared to a lot of places… Tommy Martin would know better than I in that regard.
As others have pointed out here, the only sure difference between a “professional” and a “nonprofessional” Irish traditional musician is that the professionals have chosen to make their livelihood from music. I’m sure most of us know “nonprofessionals” who could play rings around some of the people out there making their living from the music.
I think the tensions you’re describing Joseph are peculiar to Irish music. You don’t see a lot of informal public sessions among blues, rock, or pop musicians…the music doesn’t really lend itself to that; it’s much more performance oriented. But with Irish music it happens that sessions nowadays are often held in public as well as privately in people’s kitchens, and this can compete with professional musicians who are trying to get paid gigs. In the States, most pub owners don’t care so much about the quality of the music…as long as there are musicians around and attracting paying customers, that’s really what matters.
The sessions that occur at the pubs I am speaking of usually take place on “off” days, like Sunday - Thursday. To the best of my memory I cannot recall where a session has been in direct competition with anyone trying to make a living.
Yes, it is really the club owners who are out to boost their profit margin a little bit by cutting back on music expenses… and I am not refuting their right to do so. But it obviously has raised my hackles.
I’d rather be playing music for my living than getting bit by terrified Rotties and Pit Bulls… not that I mind getting bit (at least beyond the annoyance of it at times ), I understand where it is coming from.
In any case, I think it is well beyond the time that I discontinue with this discussion from my end… y’all can keep it going if you like. 
But yet you said:
Seriously, if the music is kept to such a low profile how can it survive? The ‘old guard’ of ITM is thinning out, life and aging tends to do that to a population, when they are all gone who then will keep it going? A secret society of ITM monks?
Which sounds pretty much like a far more general statement to me.
Isn’t it time to move the thread to the ITM forum yet
Grrr.
As a very talented, "professional’ ITM performer said to me, “If I wanted to make money, I’d play country music.”
Let’s get realistic.
The pub scene is a market. One without much demand for talented professionals. Little demand = little remuneration.
Those of us wanting to make living money performing Irish music - the best bet is probably pseudo-trad stuff like Riverdance or “Seltic” anything. Not worth in my opinion, but unless you are extremely lucky and develop a lucrative record deal, that’s the reality.
Okay, let’s take a step back for a minute…
This all started because someone wanted to find another musician to play with for a St. Patrick’s Day gig in a bar in Florida. The amount of money being offered for said gig was thought by a number of people on this forum to be too low, which then spiralled into a morass of griping about how “professional” musicians’ livelihoods were being ruined by suckers with tinwhistles who would do some greedy bar owner’s bidding for little or no money.
Some very good points were made by people on both sides of the issue and in my opinion, you’re both right. Note that in my previous post, I included the category of “semi-professional musician”, which admittedly sounds a bit silly, but describes a musician of high skill level that performs often and does gigs when s/he can, but does not rely on music as a primary source of income. I think well over 3/4 of all experienced Irish trad players would likely fall into this category.
I’m more than happy to play free gigs if it’s for a good cause–a friend recently organized a fundraising event for Portland Public Schools and I’m more than happy to play for that. Doing the occasional pro bono gig generally tends to contribute to good gig karma. Don’t forget to bring business cards.
The fact remains though that most bar owners are in the business to make money–if you complain too much, then it’ll be no great loss for them to drop your sorry ass and find somebody else who’s more gullible/desperate/not in need of the money (select the term(s) that fit best) who is willing to do the gig. It’s a shite state of affairs, but then again, that’s why most talented traditional musicians don’t play full-time–and wouldn’t have any interest in doing so.
Context is much more important than most people realize, I think. The environment will shape music on all levels. Music is very disposable these days - who needs musos when you’ve got radios and record players? Musicians were much more appreciated before the recording industry - most everyone could sing, at the very least. Difference was no one had any money to pay the musicians then, natch…some things never change it seems.
You might want to watch some of the films at folkstreams.net like Southern Journey or the one about Almeda Riddle, which show people going about their chores in addition to making their music - sometimes making their music while they work. I’ve never seen the like done for Irish music, not on any tape or DVD you can buy anyway.
The music would be better served if money were just taken out of the picture. Feck pubs, buy a keg and have a session in a house - or a park. Well, no keg then…music=drinking booze is a hackneyed stereotype anyway.
Argh. Thanks for the reminder. (note to self: get thee to the printing shop)
BTW, no hard feelings. I freely admit to this being a personal hobby horse of mine so I should not be surprised if there isn’t unanimous consensus!
Some people play music because they really want to, and have fun doing it, no questions asked.
Some people want to be “rockstars” and get rich and famous before they even touched an intrument.
It’s all in the approach, to each his own.
Though imho the latter people are much more prone to being depressed about their musical journey…
No, it isn’t anything like rock stardom, fame, fortune and loads of pretty girls (though I really didn’t mind the pretty girls part ). It is everything about doing what I love and trying to scratch a living from it. Nothing more and nothing less.
Never any hard feelings, simply discussion… point counter-point sort of thing.
I’m sure you have a saying like ours.
Ours goes something like “Do you feel you are being addressed?”
It was a general remark, i have seen so frigging many musicians come and go, and they all fall into either category…