The lady who was caught on tape last week, in the states, and beating her child, tearfully confessed she was just an “Irish Traveller” whatever and all that is suppose to mean.
We know Jonny Doran and others carried the lable too, but are they really some secret society, as the new clips say…
“..that speak a broken mixture of Galic and English, some marriages are configured in advance, like gypsies, with girls marrying as young as 11 yrs. old while many work the internet nowdays, travelling abroad, making money through tax-exempt schemes. This lady had serval identifications in several states…” -NBC news (paraphrased)
Know anyone with this stigma or are they just part of the rest of the traveling musicians we all know so well?
(Now “The Traveller” reel means a little more to me)
Her English was terrible, but she didn’t have a trace of an Irish accent, a traveler accent or a gypsy accent. My guess is that it’s some ploy to get off easy.
My understanding of the Irish Travelers is that they’re much like Gypsies(Rom/Romany), possibly related to the Rom in a recent past.
From what I have seen, heard from friends and read, in Ireland they’re typically treated as lepers. Thrown out of towns, made to move on from camp sites, &c.
On 2002-10-02 13:20, Kevin Popejoy wrote:
Irish Travellers (sometimes known as “itinerants” or “Tinkers”) are a very small minority group in Ireland. They make up less than 1% of the population with approximately 3,000 people in the Republic and another 1,500 in the North
Kevin Popejoy
Actually the latest census returned a lot more people who considered themselves members of the travelling community in the republic.
Facts & Figures
The Demographic situation of the Traveller Community1 in April 1996
The Traveller population in Ireland is at least 24,000. The figure given by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) of 10,891 has been acknowledged by the CSO, the Task Force on Travellers and the Government that it is not a true representation as the CSO figures only took Travellers to be people living in Trailers / Caravans on the roadside, they did not include Travellers living in group housing, or County Council / City Council provided housing. All groups involved in the study agreed it was at least 24,000, if not more. (taking this into consideration the following figures are based on figure of 10,891, although it is acknowledged that while the figures are not correct the percentages are).
Source: 1996 Census CSO
The numbers Kevin quotes are most likely only those actually living on the roadsides and halting sites.
‘Tinker’ or ‘knacker’ are considered very heavy insults by the way.
A particularly ugly thread on the whistle board just died down. Better leave it at that.
[edited to update numbers, mine had a fierce typo as well]
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-10-03 13:43 ]
Just out of curiosity: Has the recent phenomenon among members of the Brittish “rave” culture (living in fields and calling themselves travellers) had any affect or interchange with the older tinker culture? I’ve known a couple of ravers who had said they lived as travellers, but knew nothing of the culture they had lifted their name from. These two kids were more concerned with E’s and wiz than whether they were mocking a cultural group.
Marc
They largely stick to the midwestern US. I’ve hardly ever heard of them coming around New England.
Like the travelers in in Ireland, they tend to have a bad reputation, though not all of them are scam artists from what I’ve gathered. That said, there isn’t a lot of information out there seeing as all of them, good or bad, prefer to fly under the radar.
It’s sort of interesting that Madelyne Toogood identified herself as a traveler. It’s not exactly a sympathy-building move out in the midwest.
On 2002-10-02 12:04, Lorenzo wrote:
The lady who was caught on tape last week, in the states, and beating her child, tearfully confessed she was just an “Irish Traveller” whatever and all that is suppose to mean.
We know Jonny Doran and others carried the lable too, but are they really some secret society, as the new clips say…
What in the world has a woman beating her child in the US got to do with Johnny Doran or any other Traveller musician. Seems like you’re trying to stir the manure Lorenzo. I assume that the uilleann pipers on this list have have more sense than some of the types on the whistle list
What in the world has a woman beating her child in the US got to do with Johnny Doran or any other Traveller musician. Seems like you’re trying to stir the manure Lorenzo. I assume that the uilleann pipers on this list have have more sense than some of the types on the whistle list
I apologise Lorenzo. I thought I saw your name on the whistle list in connection with the Traveller thread there. I’ve checked again and the name was Loren, not Lorenzo.
Kevin I was angry as I also thought that the Traveller thread on the whistle forum was a nasty one
Steam…not a problem kind sir. Thanks Kev. I had never visited the Whistle Forum until the link mentioned above, and after reading 1st & last page…was sorry I had raised the question.
I have learned something and appreciate all the scholarly comments.
It sounds like your friends are part of the “New Age Traveller” movement in Britain. I used to know a bunch of these guys before I moved over here. The Glastonbury Festival http://www.glastonbury-festivals.co.uk/ was the annual event, sort of similar to die hard Dead Heads in the States. There was a band called “The Levellers” everyone was into back then that epitomised the whole thing. Anti nuclear and anti establishment was pretty much the rule of thumb. “Ozric Tentacles” http://www.ozrics.com/ were another band of note.
New Age Travellers hold a close affinity with Stone Henge and tend to be experimental with drugs that induce religious type experiences.
Great days!
Patrick.
[ This Message was edited by: Patrick D’Arcy on 2002-10-03 13:40 ]
I would like to apologise for putting that link. I only did so because on the first page there was some interesting stuff that I’d never heard about the Travellers. I honestly almost didn’t put it up because it turned so nasty right after.
-Paul
[ This Message was edited by: paul on 2002-10-03 14:18 ]
Dear Patrick,
I haven’t heard Ozric mentioned in years. Another friend of mine was a promoter for them for a couple of Detroit area gigs. Nice guys and one of them was a hell of a tin whistler. The Levellers never got too far in the States but they had a decent sound. Even though I was sober,(well; drunk off my butt, but no rave drugs) I kinda miss those days. Thanks for the nostalgia trip.
Cheers,
Marc
Travellers–Irish or not and whatever they’re ill-named by others throughout Europe–have been essential to the music, quoting a quite interesting broadcast on radio France-Musiques the other day. From what I gathered, all of these nomadic social groups have a very high percentage of skilled misicians. The main social reason invoked was that being a misician is a socially accepted trade for travellers. Note that today there’s nothing wrong with being a R&R “roadie” with most police forces. In a sense, they became musicians as one of the only trades you can practice while unwilling to sedentarize.
The other interesting point in the radio study, was that most Gypsies (for short, OK ? else read Rom, Romans, Tziganes, etc. at will) did not bring their own music in the countries of Europe where they half-settled (wit borders locking up), but mostly fed on local music and brought it to professional mastery, while usually bending it to a distinctive “accent”. Hence Tziganes play Hungarian music in Hungary, Russian in Russia and of course Flamenco in Spain, just to quote a few. The reason why is that the farmers and other sedentaries want to hear their “own” music when attending the fair or a cabaret.
So the Gypsies adapted to the local taste, and time. Django Reinhardt, a French “people of the journey”, left quite a bit memory for his jazz guitar (7-stringed…) in the Swing era, I’m sure the name this partner of Stephane Grapelli rings a bell note.
Anyway, playing music in public places was a way to be socially accepted–or half so–while the other usual trades you could carry along on the road made you suspicious to the local guarda/sheriff/gendarme : sharpening knives, sweeping chimneys, making wicker baskets, predicting the future, etc.
So, whatever one’s social prejudices, one can at least respect the essential role the strange people with trailors have played in the development of European music(s).
[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2002-10-03 14:34 ]
Hmmm…in my experience (grandson of a Argyllshire ‘Settled Traveller’) the absolute bl**dy LAST thing that a real traveller would do would be to even mention one’s status. It just brings more trouble.
To my knowledge, very few of the Irish and Scots Travellers aren’t (or perhaps “weren’t” - times change) ethnically Rom but rather are of the indigenous population, and I’ve heard from more than one source that the locals and the ‘incomers from away’ do not get along at all.
Different familys have/have had different reputations - some were hardworking and welcome, others are…difficult…but it’s always convenient to pin the blame on ‘others’ who keep to themselves rather than try to fit in to the group (A Jew or a Sikh might want to add something to the thread here…)
This woman just sounds like a skating cow who’s taking the p***. We’re ALL products of our environments and I suspect if she trys that on with the old crowd she’ll get her bell rung!
Not everyone gets upset at being called a ‘Tink’ (the word technically only applies to those who work in metal and comes from the sound of a hammer beating on a pot: a “Tinker’s Dam” [not ‘damn’] is a wee bit bread pinched into a hole to prevent the solder from running through - hence, ‘a useless thing’) - it depends on how you say it…
Our family were horse-traders, leatherworkers and pipers, and they called us ‘copes’ or ‘Cairds’.
when i was a busker i had a couple of run-ins with people i took for irish travellers - i got the feeling that they thought i was taking something that they regarded as their own, and on top of that was making a few bob too, which they seemed to resent - my own (negative) impression of travellers is that they seem to be cursed by drink problems more than the settled community - i think that they get a lot of stick but at the same time i think they can be their own worst enemies
