I wonder.......

I don’t know if it’s cost as much as getting the particular sound you like, with a whistle that feels good in your hands and has air requirements that work for you. I know some of the expensive whistles are chiffier than I like – I’d prefer my Hoover or my new Dixon to those. OTOH, I might well prefer an O’Riordan to anything I now have (not having played one, I don’t know). The feel and sound of a particular inexpensive whistle might work well for one person (but the feel and sound of a different inexpensive whistle might not work well for the same person), while someone else might not be able to find what they want without shelling out more $$$.

It’s one of those individual differences, I think.

Tery

Hey Col:
Having lived around Berkeley for the last 30 years and been exposed to radical chic, yeah, you have the idea.

The hair shirt is not just an old metaphor. People (especially upper-middle class kids like Joan Baez) couldn’t do enough to be folksy and identify with the “real” people.
Don’t let the Mexican name fool ya, she was a stanford profs daughter, not a farmworker (not to imply that that’s a bad thing, just a little fuzzy, like the 60 and 70s were anyway through the purple haze). I just sort of remember the lil sister with Fariña and motorcycles and "Huelga this and Huelga that…

Are you too young to remember blue cotton workshirts? They were ethnic and union-y. I think a Gen has some of the same allure, though Feadogs “seem” more Irish to me in that sense. Imagine how confused I was as a 17 year old, going as an exchange student from the Bay Area to live with one of the richest families in India in 1972, when the culture re-definitions and proletariat chic were still raging! They had servants and everything. Just too weird, so I have been chewing on this one for a while (that’s why I mention it).

Of course its all ridiculous. But sometimes, people need stratifications and social concepts to cling to because its too “hard” to think independently and develop a life philosophy that works at all levels.

Being a working musician playing weddings and events has always been a great social exercise in mobility for me. From the lowest economic level that can afford live music to very rich people, I have swam in those waters, vicariously, from behind the guitar and music stand.

It’s easier to put the knock on those who want a fancy-whistle than to honestly admit that hey, it might be great to own one because the familiar rut, is, well, familiar. I made my decision because I find the Burke so musically inspiring to play on and I am too old to be self-conscious about anything like that.

Someday, I may even own a nice (and clean) car!!! And not be embarrassed to drive it!

Hey, Blackhawk. No I haven’t heard the c.d. you mentioned. I’m not sure I would like it if his whistle sounded like that.
Anyway, as I said, I basically bought an
“expensive” whistle cause the cheap ones fall apart here!!! I was just lucky, it sounds like, that the expsneive one WAS easy to play, and sounded great to me and blended in with the rest of the band.
So for you that think it isn’t “really necessary”,well, I did have a real excuse…
mine kept falling apart, ha ha ha
Lolly

The bottom line is, all this discussion is just fun. We all choose our own poison. We buy whistles that fit our idea of Irish music. We are all individuals, and thankfully whistles are, too.

What an great philosophical rant for 12:00 on a Friday night…bottom line, I’m happy to have an instrument that’ll fit in my backpack.

(warning: Long, and Irish-music-centric–whether or not you play Irish music, it’s hard to deny that the Irish Music revival has had an effect on whistle availablitly)

I’m more on the ‘expensive’ side of the equation. I simply better like the way they sound. I am not as into squeaking and squawking…to me, that made Micho a master in spite of the quality of his instrument, not because of it. Granted, it’s a difference of opinion and taste.

My favorite whistles are in the $100-$150 range. I’ve played more expensive (thin weasel, abell, etc), but I continue to like my Silkstones the best…personal preference. I like them for many reasons: I like the tone, which I haven’t gotten from any of my cheapies. I like the quality control–how well the whistle handles along it’s entire range and how well it stands up to extended playing. I like the breath requirements, which match my desires pretty closely and so do not require much thought for me. The volume is moderately loud…carries well in the open and in loud sessions. They aren’t as susceptible to wind-death as my cheapies. I like the fact that it’s in tune, and so rather than spending time learning how to re-engineer an instrument or blow certain notes totally differently to bring it into tune, I can spend that time learning how to play tunes. (Imagine, buying a fiddle that you then had to sand, saw lathe and glue a bit to make playable…it boggles the imagination).

For all of that, I’m willing to spend a couple hundred bucks..but you can be assured if I could find those same qualities in a cheap whistle, I’d be all over them. Ultimately, it has nothing to do with price. It has to do with finding a whistle that has what I want, and then deciding if I’m willing to pay for it. In the case of whistles, luckily, I don’t have to pay $2000 or more like for some decent sets of pipes.

Now, as to the comment of “most folks playing cheap whistles”, I’m not so sure. Most regular folks, sure…I can’t imagine many people starting off on an expensive whistle. I didn’t. It makes more economic sense to start cheap and work up if you stick with it. However, we’re starting to see a change in what the professionals play, probably for many of the exact reasons I’ve listed above.

In the olden days, when Bodhrans were just getting added to irish music (50’s?), pretty much all whistles were cheap. You played what you had. As Irish music started gaining a broader audience worldwide, more folks were interested in playing it. (My website was swamped after the releases of both Riverdance and the Titanic, for instance–I’m sure that the Clancy Brothers playing in Carnegie Hall might have caused a similar phenomenon).

More players means a bigger market. Look at Clarke, who totally dropped their D line for a while, but now has several lines of instruments..the Clarke, the Sweetone, the Meg, all in C and D. With a bigger market, you’re going to have those folks willing to shell out bucks for instruments they like better. Eventually, more expensive whistles get more accepted into ‘the tradition’. After all, nobody seems to think an Olwell flute is too expensive.

The old pros obviously play what they grew up with. You always hear about this old guy or that old guy who played a cheap whistle. But, reports from C&Fers who’ve gone to Ireland are starting to mention how much the Susato (a moderately-priced whistle) is gaining in popularity. This matches what some of my friends have said as well. We’ve heard even recently (see “What do the top players play” thread) from a lot of “new pros” who play non-cheap whistles, O’Riordans, Sindts, Grinters, Chieftains, Overtons.

There are a number of professional (though less famous) whistlers in my town. EJ Jones (of Clandestine) plays Abells (and one Eb Copeland, I think). Larry Mallette plays Thin Weasels and Water Weasels. Judd Nelson plays Water Weasels. Turloch Boylan ‘isn’t convinced’ about high-end whistles, and records with cheapies, but also has recorded with several high-end ones(O’Riordans, Copelands, Weasels).

Heck, even Mary Bergin, who is held up as a paragon of ‘cheap whistles’, doesn’t really play them for performances. She plays Sindts, and evidently has completely gone over to the ‘dark side’ if reports of her new solid silver Sindt are accurate.

Ultimately, I think it all boils down to finding an instrument that fits your needs/desires. If that’s an inexpensive one, then you’ve gotten off lucky. :wink: But, I also think that as long as Irish music continues to stay moderately popular, there’s going to be an expanding market for the higher-end whistles. Perhaps in 50 or 100 years, $100 whistles will be more of the norm. I know they are in my session (where a Susato is pretty much the cheapest whistle regularly played).

[ This Message was edited by: wandering_whistler on 2002-07-23 12:39 ]

Yes, to each thier own. I have a brass Gen B flat and a Sweetone d that I love. There is a problem of using cheap whistles when one is addicted to low whistles, though. The problem is that there aren’t any. Yes, there are the Dixons, Susatos, and those Alskars or whatevers on Ebay; but these are at least $50. Does that put them into the cheap or expensive catagory? Anyway, until Generation or Clarke or someone comes up with a low d for $15, the “expensive” whistles will dominate the low whistle market. Until then, I’ll be merrily tooting away on my Overton.

All of this time spent arguing the merits ot each would be better spent practicing(unless you’re at work and surfing on the side).

Curses!

While switching between windows I just lost a post in which I was assembling customised replies to various contributors to this thread in which differences of opinion are expressed in a very civilised manner, unlike certain other online communities. And by the way, in view of my own recent succumbing to WhOA, I wonder if this is the only online support group which spreads a malady instead of helping people to fight it?

So anyway, well done TeriK, for bucking the hypothetical trend.

I think it was Black Hawk who commented sagely on Micho’s Gen. But don’t forget the smell of turf smoke as well. There was a surreal thread recently in which people were wondering what fingering Micho used to achieve a deviation from C nat which they had measured with an oscilloscope or some such. I didn’t want to spoil the fun by observing that the deviation had more to do with quality control at Gen than with mysterious fingering. Micho could “get away with” his style of playing because of who he was and what he represented, but an urban teenager who played exactly like him nowadays would be rubbished or at best patronised.

And lots of wise words from Weekenders, I doff my hat transatlantically, having grown up in an Ireland obsessed with protectionism and a view of the market as a zero-sum game. Whatever about whistles, there are probably more people making uilleann pipes now than there were playing them when I started circa 1971. I still have a love of the raw sound of the cheapo and what it stands for, without this preventing me from enjoying the commercial recordings made with the fancier gear. In fact I think it was a weekend listening to the Lunasa albums that triggered my WhOA attack.

But what’s this about dinner and wine for three for $100 in the Bay area? I’m on my way!

On 2002-07-23 11:49, janice wrote:
All of this time spent arguing the merits ot each would be better spent practicing(unless you’re at work and surfing on the side).

Hey Janice: Yes and Yes. I am “working” when I post or taking a break at home. I practice a lot and am really enjoying the summer because I don’t have to monitor my kids homework. It takes away from valuable whistling time. I fit Brother Steve’s obsession period to a “t.”
If I start to tire of what I’m playing, i grab another key and start in again. But even I stop a bit and check your posts, though not much since the lady upstairs moved away!!!

I have said it before but will repeat: most of our friends and acquaitances do not want to hear about our passions for whistles and IRTRAD. This is our community and I appreciate all of you and the chance to yak about it. All the other off-topics are done from the comfort of fellowship and to inject humor, no matter how twisted it might be (in my case).

Thanks, Roger too for thoughtful comments! Maybe I was exaggerating in the wrong way about dinner prices. Wine prices have gotten so high that they pushed up the price of dinner but our little dotcom bust has helped on the food.

I wrote on another thread about how the idle wealthy around here really contribute to the diversity of goods, services and foods here. It does drive prices up, but if you like bookstores, wine, coffee and fifty flavors of bagels, you can’t beat the Bay Area and other similar places! The bust has sobered things a bit but house prices are still nuts here.

On 2002-07-23 11:57, Roger O’Keeffe wrote:
There was a surreal thread recently in which people were wondering what fingering Micho used to achieve a deviation from C nat which they had measured with an oscilloscope or some such. I didn’t want to spoil the fun by observing that the deviation had more to do with quality control at Gen than with mysterious fingering.

I agree with your post, but thought this worth commenting on. I don’t know squat about Micho – but I would have guessed that an Irish musician of his generation would have used a half-hole C natural rather than a cross-fingered. And I’ve been working under the assumption that using a half-hole made a lot of sense when confronted with that weird note between C and C-sharp that fiddlers like to play in some tunes (like Rolling Waves and I Buried My Wife).

Am I completely off-base here?

(PS Any true folk musician would never pay more than $20 to feed three people. :slight_smile:)

On 2002-07-23 12:33, colomon wrote:

(PS Any true folk musician would never pay more than $20 to feed three people. > :slight_smile:> )

Any real folk musician woudl be one the other 2 people that someone else is buying food for :wink:

On 2002-07-23 11:49, janice wrote:
All of this time spent arguing the merits ot each would be better spent practicing(unless you’re at work and surfing on the side).

And how do you know I’m not listening to one track of the Goderich 2002 CD on endless loop as I type this? :slight_smile:

Actually, I work at home, so work, web-surfing, and practicing all go together. Frequently they overlap.

(In fact, the track is “The Red-Haired Lass”.)

Wow… I seem to have started the age-old debate of whistledom…

And all I wanted to know was why aren’t there as many recordings online of the cheapies…

Elf:
You should know better by now!

What WAS the question??? ( :

And in a very philosophical viewpoint, I say:

WOuld you be satisfied with a short answer???

On 2002-07-22 15:04, The Whistling Elf wrote:
I’m just curious.

People say that the inexpensive whistles really dominate the Tinwhistle world. Yet, whenever you go to a site that has whistle sound clips, the majority, (and when I say majority, I mean at least 95%) of them are the expensive whistles… I > rarely > see sound clips of whistles like Clarkes, Feadogs, Generations, Clares, Walton’s, ect.

Why is this??

OK, time for a trollish Bloomfield post, and yes, I will exaggerate a little.

Who are the people who record for clips & snips? By and large they’re amateurs, probably mostly mediocre with a few good ones thrown in. That’s not counting the beginners. Why does somebody, who is not the type of player whose rendition of the Kesh Jig the world has waited for with bated breath, record and publish a tune? Well, it’s fun, it’s an experience, it’s an ego-boost, it’s a little bit of showing off. Those are reasons that are not only about The Music.

So, those who post to clips & snips by and large aren’t the ones who care for nothing but The Music. They have different motivations, as well. Makes sense that they are the same ones who tend to buy expensive whistles. It’s just as easy to buy an expensive whistle because it is such a beautiful and amazing thing as it is to buy it because you are a great whistle player. Just in case someone misconstrues this, let me make it clear: Playing an expensive whiste and posting tunes is not incompatible with a keen interest in The Music. But such keen interest in The Music does not, in itself, lead one to buy expensive whistles or post tunes on clips & snips.

BTW, I own cheap whistles mostly, but have a Sindt and my favorite whistle is an Overton high D that I play almost as much as my tweaked Generation.

A last disclaimer: If anybody has actually recorded the Kesh for clips & snips, I am not singling you out, it’s just an example. :smiley:

Hey Weekender and Coloman-
I was trying to be facetious,but it didn’t travel well to the written word. Sorry-
no offense was intended.
I also have been posting in between practicing. …

Now about those womyn, Weekender…

Oh you mean about get a life??? Ha, I forgot all about it. Some people have very long memories though and you’ll be pondering cereal for a long time, but not by me.
The next best thing to playing whistle is yakking with the Forum while at “work.” O-kay?
Nice to meet ya. I remember other things you said.

I should have written “probably had more to do with QC at Gen…”

Peter Laban is probably the one who can give us the authoritative word on Micho’s fingering for Cnat. I just assumed that Micho would have used cross-fingering on flimsy circumstancial evidence, including the influence of pipers on Clare music and the fact that cross-fingering was the only way I learnt to play this note.

Admittedly I have transferred more technique from pipes to whistle than vice versa, but I have only ever used cross-fingering for Cnat and regard half-covering this note as a bit of an abomination.

The most characteristic thing that pipers do with Cnat is to slide up to it from B by gradually uncovering the G and C holes and applying a heavy vibrato. It makes a mournful sound, which we’re so in love with that it often doesn’t even rise all the way to a true Cnat. It’s shown off to great advantage in tunes like “The pipe on the hob”, especially in Séamus Ennis’s recording.
You can get something close to it on the whistle, certainly on a brass Gen, with OXXOXO, applying the vibrato with the G finger.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not an authority on old-fashioned Irish whistle fingering. It’s just that the few older players from over there I do know well use the half-hole, and I’ve heard from fairly reliable sources that it is (or at least was) standard.