how sharp is too sharp

[LorenzoFlute]

This is some harsh answer to a legitimate opinion of mine…

So, first of all, I started playing flute on bansuris (sorry for adding the “s” for the plural). I have three of them, in G#, D, and B. The bore of my D bansuri is 2,3 cm, way more than the beginning of a Pratten’s cone. Holes are also very big.

Then, we were talking about the embouchure hole and its effects on tone and volume. I.D.10-t said that he thought “deeper chimneys worked better for lower notes”, and you responded that on bansuris you have good low notes anyway. My point is that it is possible that the two things can both be true (but I don’t know since I’m not a flute maker!), because bansuris have a big bore and maybe for other reasons. But what if you take a bansuri and find a way to make the chimney deeper? Isn’t it possible that the low notes will get even stronger? (again, I don’t know the answer, but perhaps this is the reason Doug added the option of a lip plate for his flute, so there you go)

It’s like saying “A implies B, but B doesn’t imply A”, or A=>B, instead of A<=>B, as you said…
(“A” being “deep chimney”, “B” being “better low notes”)

[Nanohedron]

@Nanohedron

@Nanohedron

@Gabriel

A very sharp edge normally increases the amount of “noise” (hissing) that is audible while playing. [snip] On my own flute the edge is a bit rounded off, as this makes the embouchure more resistant to high-power blowers like me.

This is very interesting to me. Could you elaborate?

Still waiting on this one, guys.

Whether the topic by default becomes its own thread drift or not, I’m stickin’ to it. Like white on rice. Like a pit bull to a porkchop. Like snot you can’t flick off yer finger. Still waitin’…

[LorenzoFlute]

Steffen’s last post was a few days back (same on facebook), so perhaps he’s busy these days…

[Nanohedron]

Thank you. That is helpful.

Although I must say that how anyone can regard something as more important than C&F for their time is beyond me.

[talasiga]

@Othannen

…But what if you take a bansuri and find a way to make the chimney deeper? Isn’t it possible that the low notes will get even stronger? (again, I don’t know the answer, but perhaps this is the reason Doug added the option of a lip plate for his flute, so there you go)
…

This is a very good and interesting probe and perfectly shows how the introduction of bansuri to the comparison could hone our exploration of chimney depth and embouchure edge. The good very shallow chimney baansuri is at one pole and the good deep chimney Irish flute at the other pole. The Olwell bamboo flutes, I suspect, would be thicker walled than the thin walled bamboo preferred for baansuri but not hardly near as thick as the wooden flutes.

I have a non baansuri bamboo C with bamboo lipplate and it honks great low notes superior to Boehm flute. Also there are baansuri makers now who make them with bamboo lipplates. I SPECULATE that the deeper the chimney the MORE MATERIAL there is for the maker to SHAPE or hone the embouchure edge. However my points go towards the idea that it may not be necessary to have as deep a chimney as we see in wooden Irish flutes to obtain the effect that is sought. If that were so then the Olwell bamboos would not be acceptable for ITM.

In summary, in my speculative opinion, it is the shaping of the embouchure edge that is the most significant thing REGARDLESS of some absolute value that some may apply to chimney depth.

[Denny]

@Trevor Wye

The depth of the ‘chimney’ or ‘riser’, the part you blow into, is measured at the sides of the hole and is between 4.6mm and 5.0mm deep. Deeper risers result in a stronger low register, but a weak second octave.

http://www.flutefocus.com/210-flute-facts-headjoints.html

[Gabriel]

Was knocked down by a terrible cold and taught a workshop last weekend, so I couldn’t find time earlier…sorry.

I’m not entirely sure about it, but I think I.D.10-t’s speculation is quite spot on. I’ve tried this on various headjoints and always found the same result, with a slightly rounded edge the flute can take a higher air stream pressure without shutting down (i.e. not overblowing, but being silent!) and tone loses some of its hissing. The resulting tone will be rounder and maybe mellower, but one can still get a barking loud tone by turning the headjoint in a bit or blowing harder (which is what I do). Also, the first register gets a bit easier on some (but not all) flutes, and the third register gets more difficult. On all original Prattens I saw so far, the embouchure edge has a radius - the Rudalls I had in my hands had sharper edges. Maybe tells us something about which registers were favored by different makers?

However all this is quite a matter of taste, I made a headjoint for a german fluter who explicitly asked me to leave the edge sharp. Works just as nicely as my own headjoint, but sounds different, more hissing or chirping maybe…but he likes it that way. I actually liked it, too…worked well on his flute.

And before someone grabs some sandpaper and scrape their embouchure hole away - don’t do it. I’m talking about very subtle differences, round the edge off too far and you ruin everything.

[Nanohedron]

Thanks, Gabriel.

Hope you’re feeling better, now.

@Gabriel

And before someone grabs some sandpaper and scrape their embouchure hole away - don’t do it. I’m talking about very subtle differences, round the edge off too far and you ruin everything.

No, I’m on a mission to master my embouchure cut just the way the maker made it and as it came to me. Only way I’d try messing with an edge is if I had something on the order of a spare Pakistani job lying around, just to see what happens.