how do you get to Carnegie hall?

Uilleann Pipes
1

Practice, practice,practice,just a few points that might be worth discussing .

How do you actually do your practicing ,in a practicing session do you just play a lot of tunes or concentrate on one tune?

Is there just one correct way to practice and should we all be doing it that way or should you just suit yourself.

How do classically trained music teachers approach practicing in regard to their students and can we learn from them a correct method of practicing.Any classical trained musicians on the forum that could give us some insight in that respect.

Should all practicing be done on the instrument or could you say do some kind of visualisation technique or finger practicing on say a pencil while playing the tune in your minds ear. (this would apply when away from your pipes ,like at work)

RORY

2

Great topic! Would be great to read future replies.
In classical music people spend lots of time practicing basics through scales, arpeggios and etudes. It looks like those things are a bit underrated in uilleann piping world.
Basics is something worth practicing at any step of learning process, i believe.
I found out that northumbrian tunes work great as etudes for uilleann pipes)

3

hi,i do not know what standard you are at but when i was learning i found "intelligent"practice to be the thing.get the bare bones of a few tunes albeit jigs,reels etc and get the shape of the tunes in your head.the structure of a tune will decide where you have to place the piping ornamentation that is so intrinsic to getting the tune going in proper rythym.by practiscing your rolls,cuts,crans,pops,slurs,drags,tipping,playing off the leg and on the leg as the old boys used to do you can then introduce these rythmic effects to punctuate the melody to achieve the maximum result.do not introduce too many effects at the same time,spread it out over time,cuts and crans in the right place are the most effective.do not forget the ghost d introduced by ennis it is a wonderful addition to all piping especially slow airs.ornamentation in celtic music is essentially an aid to driving the music along rythmicaly and tastefully as the pipes were once a solo instrument and relied on the skill of the piper to produce the proper drive in the tunes along,now with the usual aid of accompaniament some of the traditional techniques have been lost at the expense of speed above quality.anyway,i know i sound like an old fart and my spelling is awful but that is my view.the old roads are the best roads,live long and prosper,allan.

4

I (try to) approach my practice the way I did when learning piano, and trumpet:

  1. Warm up - running up and down the scale, playing a few tunes, getting the fingers nimbled up especially on cold days, and also to get the reed warmed up

  2. Exercises - for example, never understimate the value of stacatto scales. Best advice I received from my tutor when I first started - “Learn to play stacatto first even if you want to play ‘Travellin’ Style’.” The Leo Rowsome exercises are good for this.

  3. Focus on one or two piping techniques (it helps greatly if I’ve been listening to a master piper and have identified a technique to focus on)

  4. apply all this to a few tunes I’m working on (trying to get myself to sound like the master piper refered to in point 3, in my case, usually Willie Clancy or Tommy Reck - I like to try and develop skills at somewhat opposite ends of the spectrum)

  5. when in the office, a wooden ruler is good for practicing finger movements while quitely lilting a tune.

5

there are innumerable difficulties in applying “classical” pedagogy to what is essentially, a folk tradition that’s aurally passed down. the goal in classical is to REPRODUCE EXACTLY what is on THE PRINTED PAGE, to the last detail, add as little of yourself as you can, yet simultaneously delve deeper into the composers intent, often subject to the dictates of a conductor;… as opposed to the softer approach of ‘this or that’ region, player, school of thought, what we perceive in listening, or that abc “notation” rubbish. the goal in trad (as I understand it this week :laughing: ) is to FAITHFULLY REPRODUCE generations of individual practitioners that have come before, with no means other than critical listening and ones technical skill, whilst adding your own take on the entire genre, within the limits of accepted taste, subject to endorsement by the foremost practitioners of the craft, who must not be imitated outright.

My current personal experience is that my DECADES of classical training aren’t worth a tinkers feck in playing the uilleann pipe. Ive played hours upon hours of Sevcik-like exercises to perfection, scales, thirds, chords, all in metric, harmonic & retrograde inversion, etc… and they do indeed help when playing the Uilleann pipe OUTSIDE of its realm, (for ex, religious service music, jazz/rock/pop/orchestral charts) but do absoutely no good at all when trying to learn a set of jigs or reels. How much, really , does an Uilleannpiper sight-read, improv improv, or play a secondary/contrapuntal role in the musical texture??? The hints that Allan Moller gives above are far better adapted to the interpretation of ITM than “classical” training. I see very little application from one to the other.

I do not believe there is a ‘correct’ way of practicing; but there definetely is an INCORRECT way. Call him a grumpy, ill, burnt old, world weary hippie, but Cream’s drummer Ginger Baker gave (what I consider to be) one of the most insightful interviews on music making ever, to a Rolling Stone reporter recently. Ginger Baker on Why 'the Rolling Stones Are Not Good Musicians' have to say, i find his thoughts quite refreshing, full of wisdom, and I would make this interview required reading for every single music student enrolled today.
Ive found also that placebos such as pencils just reinforce bad habits. How can anyone hear a crossing noise on a pencil? OTOH, learning the tune through repeated critical listening and/or memorization of staff notation to the point where one can ‘play’(envision?) a piece in ones imagination is of primary importance, wether learnign the ‘classical’ way, or the ‘trad’ way. Lastly, I’l say if for you, just cause im a good sport: whatevs :pint: . if it works it works. just dont practice mistakes, or until the horse is dead, or until ones synovial tendon sheaths turn into sausage.

PS its probably best to get on W 42nd St from the Lincoln Tunnell, then go up 8th Ave (if you can turn there, I forget) around Columbus circle, ( never liked crossin Broadway @58th) then down 7th ave, to get to Carnagie Hall. Any you NewYorkers got a better way, i’d love ta hear it.

6

Ginger Baker gave (what I consider to be) one of the most insightful interviews on music making ever

OK, I read it. You consider that insightful. Jeez, Charlie. I agree with you on a lot of things, but that’s out there. Here’s what I consider insightful: http://thetalentcode.com/
Cheers mate,
Jeff

7

Thanks for the directions. About time someone made that response. :slight_smile:

Now about the goal of classical (whatever that really means) training: It is not to reproduce the printed page, or at least it is not just that. It is to provide the learner with all of the executant skills needed to properly realize what the notation says. Such things as intonation, tone quality, articulation, and speed of playing become goals. Most classically trained folks now, unless they come from one of the “old school” places, are also expected to understand proper playing style for music from a variety of eras and styles…sometimes even including various kinds of jazz, pop, and traditional playing. If the goal is reached you have a player that uses the outline provided by the dots combined with knowledge gained through understanding of styles to produce the result. So, in my view, a classically trained person may well have much to say about how to approach practicing; if they are not just trained to be a reproducing machine. I’ve performed with classical folks playing american fiddle tunes extremely well, and have heard one of the best free lance violinists in our area do a creditable job on bluegrass style. And that cross pollination goes both ways. Listen to Mark O’Conner’s recent stuff for example.

8

Yes CHasR has it right. I took up the classical violin, but I found out that it wasn’t for me, for me practicing the violin was just a chore.

I started with a tradlessons uilleann iPad app. But I wanted to play tight style, and I only could play open on it. So I would practice on the pencil at school. (I was given rather strange looks, but it helped!)





Practicing the uilleann pipes on the other hand, I look forward to it everyday. I absolutely love playing it. I just find the uilleann pipes mentally and spiritually uplifting. :slight_smile:

9

From 4th St. turn left on 8th Ave. and just go straight down, then onto W 57 St. CH is on the right

10

I don’t think it’s even that. The goal in playing classical music isn’t to reproduce what’s on the printed page, because, even in classical music, so much of the music isn’t actually on the printed page. A lot of it is in a separate, parallel, oral tradition passed down from teacher to teacher over hundreds of years. You won’t find on the printed page a lot of what you have to do to play a piece of Bach. A lot of it is simply “understood”, ie passed down orally. I think a lot of classical musicians don’t get just how much of what they play is mimicry and understanding of various styles, and not what’s on the printed page. They do it; they just don’t know they’re doing it.

I’ll give just one example to illustrate: tell a good classical musician that the dots in front of him/her are from the Baroque era. Now tell him/her that they are from the late Romantic period. Now tell him they’re Stravinsky in his neo-Classical phase. Just see how much difference there is between the three.

Back to the OP: there’s been a lot of this sort of talk on the various forums lately. And I’d agree with what seems to be emerging as a bit of a consensus: play it slow; and focus on the little things - the corners of each tune that don’t quite sit right, the sound of each note, the attack, the exact pressure required to make each note sound exactly as you want it, etc etc

11

From the age of ten on I had piano lessons. Then at 17 I took organ lessons (church; village). A completely different thing this time: An organ, unlike a piano has no “dynamics” - you cannot change the loudness (spontaneously): For example: You cannot emphazise the first note in a bar by playing it a leetle bit louder than the rest. This is the same with pipes - all other session instruments CAN do it. Irish Music however (and unfortunately this quite often goes for pipes, too) in its tuition (nowadays everything is “predigested” in classes) does not (or rather hardly) pay too much attention to these specifical “pipe-thing”.

Organ players work with “psychological dynamics”: Instead of playing the note a leetle bit louder they play it a leetle bit longer (and the non emphazised in the bar a leetle bit shorter - this might sound like "a pain in the ass first but gets “automatical” quickly - you simply do it without thinking). The listener accepts notes that are “heavier” than the rest as emphazised - no matter whether louder or longer. (The ability of genuine stops obviously led to the removal of the foot-piece – the Uillean-Pipes were born)

In my organ lessons I also was supplied with a “non-traditional” terminology: staccato, portato, legato vs. ~ open, tight (which sometimes is not enough - I found actually that “portato” explains Johnny Doran´s style better than “open” or “tight” (after nearly every note you can hear a little stop)). The other thing: Them organ lessons created an awareness in me for the three important things in music: Rhythm, Rhythm, Rhythm. (A fourth thing might be timing).

Since quite a lot of us live outside an Irish surroundings, I find it more important to fascinate „non-experts“ (children, wifes etc. ). The most „pissing off“ thing are flaws in the timing – nobody (except session players) cares or has an awareness for gracenotes but everybody does hear when your timing gets „chewinggummy“ by them.

Play a tune without the gracenotes! This does not mean generally but that you have to be able to do that first before you integrate them. The plain (midi) structure is what classical lessons show you as well and they create an awareness of their „limited“ purpose (very ornamental, but NOT necessary): Their emphaziseing function is „questionable“. In addition: On any blown or bowed instruments any note does NOT end when a new one begins but when you stop blowing or bowing (and stringed instrument players BTW also have their techniques to „stop off“ the sustain).

Altogether I think that classical lessons are a very helpful addition but nonetheless a very „different cup of tea“ and can´t replace the traditional approach.

12

Most of this is fine advice for people who want to more or less devote their lives to being brilliant musicians.

But remember - this is folk music. It’s for participation. Yes, become competent. But we shouldn’t say, even by implication or omission, that you should either spend 100 hours a week practicing or give it up altogether.

13

dont get me wrong, you’re a #1, A-OK guy in my book Jeff: :thumbsup: but we will have to agree to disagree on this. I did read your link. None of that motivational cr@pola has everworked for me. Either one has “it”: or one dont. Either one’s doin it: or one aint. Musicians can be HIGHLY antisocial and yet play like a dream come true, Im certain youve seen this. One makes music because one has to, theres no other choice wether theyre into it or not.

For me that blog seems to be targeted more for a nice, normal suburban kids soccer team than a performing musical group. Orchestras & GHB bands are dictatorships. Most other ensembles function like African wildlife at a watering hole. & then there are what I call “star-support-systems” which function just like Medieval serfdoms, at best :laughing: .

Now as to the ‘music begins off the page’ angle, yeah it does. i guiltily made that assumption & didnt include it originally. and yes, a qualified dots interpreter is aware of stylistic norms just as much as an expert trad player. But the goal of all practice is PERFORMANCE, agreed?


Steampacket, you mean 42nd St, yes? cause 4th st, isnt that all the way down the bottom??
8th ave runs into Hudson at what, 12th?

14

Hello,

Really liked the Ginger Baker interview. I think from his perspective it makes sense, but in the context of solo piping it’s simply not the case. If you spent your days playing with some of the best musicians in the world surely performing once or twice a day would be sufficient practice.

With regards to piping as a solo endeavour most of us don’t have the luxury of gigging regularly. Not practicing in a rock band can keep the music ‘fresh’ whereas not practicing piping can come across as sloppy.

I’m surprised no one has mentioned listening yet. I’d say listening is more important than practicing. Learn some good solo pipes recordings so you know every phrase and ornament by ear, and then transfer this to your piping, bit by bit. And listening is arguably easier than playing.

15

I would say the uilleann pipes have some dynamics! :slight_smile: Like when you lift the chanter off the knee, or vent the holes.

16

See point 3 and 4 of my earlier post. It was subtle hint at the importance of listening :slight_smile:

17

well that all depends (100%) on what conservatory they graduated from :laughing: a Curtis kid would absolutely know.

ive tried very hard to let this sit; but the more I re read it, the less likely the situation you propose seems. A ‘good’ classical musician would be able to tell by simply looking at the chart wether its baroque, common practice, or modernist. Theres just no mistaking Igorovitch for Rachmaninoff. and neither of them look ANYTHING like Sebastian Bach. Im not saying that there arent different approaches to each composer, what im saying is that each composer was skilled enough to impart their intentions irrevocably in print. The closest one can get to your proposed situation is to say to a good classically trained musician “play this like neoclassic, then LRM, then north German Baroq”. And they will, quite knowingly. :slight_smile:

18

the only thing that article did for me was confirm that i don’t like Ginger Baker.

i think it’s absurd to claim musician’s either are or aren’t, and that practice has little to no effect. Ennis or Clancy, Beethoven or Paganini, all the musicians that i respect and admire seem to have put in A LOT of time towards practice, and all seem to have had an aim and an ambition to better themselves towards something greater at some point.

19

I’ve just remembered a book on the subject, ‘The Genius in all of Us’

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1848312180

Deals with the idea that anybody can achieve anything and that talent or intelligence are not genetic but grown.

I think the author uses an example of a violinist but can’t quite remember.

20

Yeah, he’s just a beaming ray of sunshine, isn’t he? :slight_smile: I wonder what got him into this bad place and hope he finds a way out of it.

After reading that interview I found it therapeutic to consider Neil Peart. Mr. Peart is a drummer/musician in the same class or a higher one than that of Mr. Baker, has suffered terrible losses in his life but maintains a brighter perspective. If you ever want to be uplifted, just watch the documentary on Rush called “Beyond the Lighted Stage” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1545103/). You don’t have to like Rush or even like rock music to experience this effect.