HELP UK MUSICIANS TO DEFEAT LICENSING BILL!!!

That’s socialism for ya. Its incremental and scary but Brits have a complex welfare and taxation system, starting with the monarchy and barring a revolution, no sign of abatement. I remember so many years ago that many highly paid entertainers lived offshore to avoid crippling progressive taxation but people just continue to put up with it.

With enough public cooperation and consensus, this is presumably what they want. I believe they have some kind of knife permit too that is unbelievable to American libertarian ideals.

Its their choice but I hope voices of reason will prevail in this issue. The bottom line of socialism is control and that’s where it intersects with more blatantly authoritarian forms of government. And another dimension is the idea that the government “knows better” so they must be right to impose such things. The relinquishing of manhood (or personhood) and being relegated to an irresponsible child that needs constant regulation and monitoring is another difference in our political systems.

Please think of this everytime your municipality/county/state/feds propose a new fee or tax. And its not just the tax having to be paid, that’s merely onerous. But its the implied police power for non-compliance that is chilling. It reaches a point where there are so many laws etc that everyone becomes some kind of criminal because they just can’t meet all the demands of these hyperactive lawmakers.

But everyone knows that buskers are rich, right? So they should contribute and “give back” right?

Too bad for the Lion.

Just read the papers.
There may be more alarming issues to Blair than this demonstration of his foolishness.

Yesterday UK called back 1500 reservists for the scheduled attack of Iraq.

Self-proclaimed "socialist ", forbidding public music or busking, but broadcasting drums and fife…

What next, crackdown on some ethnic minority ? :roll:

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2003-01-08 12:18 ]

On 2003-01-08 11:39, The Weekenders wrote:
That’s socialism for ya. […]]

that is unbelievable to American libertarian ideals.

Its their choice but I hope voices of reason will prevail in this issue

I don’t think Weekenders really got the idea, in their defence what can we say, but at least they didn’t drop the Kyoto protocol in support of their friends and their own business interests.

Time to get back to the original subject.

The UK Government have always been inventive in the creation of new taxes, duties and licenses. Hearth Tax, Wig Tax, Window Tax, Poll Tax, Clown Tax (I wish)Stepping on the Cracks in the Pavement Tax…

I’ve had a couple of chats about this elsewhere - what I don’t see is how they expect to enforce the legislation. If there aren’t enough prisons to lock up the real criminals (like Sir Jeffrey Archer & burglars) where are they going to fit all the musicians?

I think I got it Peter. I read the first post and I think its ridiculous to imply police power and impose a tax on some of the lowest paid people in a society. And the incremental presence of such thinking is occurring in the US as well (so I am not implying superiority on our part, just a historically different tack on these issues). We have a local politician who wants to tax each bullet that we buy because it will reduce crime. That is what initiated my comments.

And the Kyoto protocols have nothing to do with a busker’s tax either.

I shoulkd learn never underestimate a politician. Blair is shrewd. Ain’t this family of Scots background?
So, English musicians emigrate far away, like Scotland, and buskers go for free air in XXXXX just Derry.
Wait just ten years, and the center of R&R switches to Glasgow, Abbey Road studios moves to Douglas, IoM, and some Edinburgh tap dancers put Riverdance out of business :laughing:

See, Blair is actually a sleeping agent sent from Scotland. Now, I still wonder what edge Bush got on this guy, seemingly handling him like a string-puppet… Is the prime shrewder than shrewd, double-cross ? By the way, which nation had double-cross for flag ? In the movie The Dicatator, of course… :roll:

This bill ABSOLUTELY STINKS! O.K.,perhaps the idea behind it is to cut down on Loud music blaring out of pubs/clubs in residential areas,but it will have an extremenly detrimental effect on traditional music(almost threatening its existence,the NEW UNDERGROUND MUSIC;FOLK!)The previous govt. tried to ban illegal ‘Raves’.What next-a whistle licence? Yes,it’s true that we pay for our T.V. licences;£47 black and white,£112 colour.This reminds me of an amusing story(alledgedly true).A T.V. detector van parks outside a house,and the licence inspector knocks on the door.A burly Irishman opens up.“Top o’ the morning,what can I be doing for you?” he says. “Could I see your T.v. licence?” asks the inspector.“Why certainly Sor” replies our Irish friend. The inspector looks at said licence,and says"but THIS licence is black and white-we Know your t.v.is receiving a COLOUR PICTURE." The Irishman looks totally astounded “JAYSUZ- ANOTHER MIRACLE!!” says he.

Time to start moving west again,
to the frontier, to the
big sky–just me, my dog, and my
whistle. The Taxman will
never find me there…

As I went walkin one morning for
pleasure
I spied a young cowboy a riding
along.
His hat was thrown back
And his spurs were a jingling
And as he rode he was singing
this song:

Yippee Ki Yi Yea,
Get along little doggies,
It’s your misfortune
and none of my own.
Yippe Ki Yi Yea,
Get along little doggies,
You know that Wyoming
will be your new home.

The new licensing laws are aimed at preventing scenarios such as somebody like Paul McCartney turning up and playing solo at a pub - previously this wouldn’t need a license - and things like discos, which are very noisy, but only have one ‘musician’ so don’t violate the current ‘2 in a bar rule’.
However innocent musicians get caught up in it. Now, if 3 members of a choir go down the pub after the concert and break out into song, they are breaking the law. If the new bill is passed, 1 singer would be breaking the law. The only way around it is to have completely unadvertised events that the county council can never get to hear about (not that I would ever be invovled in breaking the law.. :slight_smile:) ).

In the future, it seems that having musicians playing at a private party will be illegal without a license. Small up and coming bands won’t be able to get gigs, as only the large venues will be able to afford a license. Maybe stereos will be licensed. It makes me wonder where it’s all going - thought police?

Oh, thank you Whistling Elf for starting this thread - it is something I had been planning to do myself.

You’re welcome, Jo C.

This is also a bump. :slight_smile:

An admittedly off-topic update to civil liberties incursion:

In Fairfax County Virginia, police are going into bars, adminstering breathalyser tests and issuing citations for drunkeness.
Whether the person was going to drive or not has nothing to do with it as they have cited people who arrived in cabs, etc.

I don’t see how long that can last but it shows some authoritarian cheek…

But the part about Paul McCartney going into a pub to play solo…what was the problem? Too many people going fan-crazy or something? I didn’t quite get that.

On 2003-01-10 16:01, The Weekenders wrote:

In Fairfax County Virginia, police are going into bars, adminstering breathalyser tests and issuing citations for drunkeness.
Whether the person was going to drive or not has nothing to do with it as they have cited people who arrived in cabs, etc.

Apart from drunken driving laws, I believe that public drunkenness is still counted as a crime.

I don’t see how long that can last but it shows some authoritarian cheek…

Indeed. The sheriff’s deputies and police have no business going out searching for unreported lawbreakers. Only if a citizen files a complaint should they intervene. But, that isn’t the way they operate.

Hey weeks what you Just described has to be against the law. Going into a place of buisness to administer breathalizer tests is just as bad as going to a party at a private residance and administering breathalizer tests. In actuality most drunk drivers are not coming from Bars they’re coming from parties, because under the law bars have to stop serving alcohol to someone who is noticably intoxicated. At most, cops could go into bars and ask to see everyones ID’s but doing alcohol tests on people who are not breaking any laws is called ENTRAPMENT and it IS against the law. After all it’s a bar of course people are going to be drinking alcohol, DUH! Entrapment laws are those laws that say Cops can not wait in a cruiser outside a bar and pull people over when they leave in a car. Entrapment laws make it illegal for a Cop to tailgate you for 20 miles then pull you over when you speed up to get him off your ass. I actually pulled over when a cop tried that with me. He pulled over behind me, and walked up to my car. he asked me if I was OK. I said sure but I was just wondering if you know about entrapment and tailgating laws. Just because you are a police officer does not give you the right to follow a car under the legal distance. He got in his car and drove away. Entrapment laws make it so cops can’t hide way way way back in the bushes a long a highway and or road and pull speeders over. They have to be somewhat visable. If you get pulled over by an unmarked car you can fight it in court under entrapment laws and win. Theres a town in PA called Bangour. This town passed a legislation that made it illegal For anyone of any age to Ride a skateboard, rollerblades, or one of those two-wheel scooters in city limits. They also passed a law that says any teenager under the age of 17 must be accompanied by a legal gardian, if before mentioned teenager is walking along the street at night. This town and it’s outlying towns are also the KKK capital of PA. Around here we call it little Mississippi.
I think it’s horrible for a country such as the UK to even think about putting a tax on something that has such ethnic history. Music makes up such a large part of all peoples. Music is what makes the world livable. To put a tax on something that should be free to anyone who wants to give a listen is an atrocity to humanity.
(and yes I know my spelling sucks, but I just don’t care damnit!)

Entrapment = “legal” framing–if I understand you right?

I thought many county sherifs do that. Recall driving from Boston towards West back in 79. There was this tunnel on that major highway (or “turnpike” ?), don’t remember what state in-between PA and IL–agreed there’s s big margin in my description.
So the tunnel; entering, it had a small sign “remove your sunglasses”, at the exit had the county cops stopping everyone who had his sunglasses on…
Downhill, just before entering Las Vegas from the South on this neverending “russian hills” up and down straight road, the city cops waiting in case you’re speeding at what–60, 65? --on freewheel on that steep slope…
In south Calif., CHP regularly stopped me on false pretenses, usually just to have a look at my sidecar… But they’d retain me for like half an hour : they obviously had nothing better to do…
CHP again–supposed to be an “elite” force–stopped me for an hour on the road to TeeJay just to pretend it was illegal to drive there with a French registration…
Think it’s an Orange county exclusive ?
In NYC, some jerks threw my sidehack with locked steering and wheels in the middle of an avenue–was it Madison?–to get my parking space (and coins in the meter…). When I came back, a cop was fining me… he could have pulled this trick himself for all I know.
In NYC Greenwich Village, another cop wanted to detain me on the grounds I just had a sidecar, pretended it was an illegal vehicle. Had to patiently suggest him to call the Central with his walkie, and check his BS first…
In Torrance, Calif. (the armpit of LA area…) some mirror-Ray-Baned cop on his motorbike wanted to fine me for “jaywalking” : I crossed a totally desert sunbaked straight avenue by foot outside of the zebra-stripes. Remember they had these no closer than a mile… He probably spied with binoculars. Drove to me and started with a “Hey, you !”
LA center, by the UCLA, fined by a cop for having put one foot down the pavement to check out if a city bus was approaching : jaywalking!
I don’t recall all the countless incidents–some counties way worse than others, agreed–I experienced with local polices in the US in the 3 years I stayed there.

BTW : I always wore short hair, bike jacket but not black, and pressed slacks, clean shave…
BTW2 : all this stopped when I reached the Bay area, more precisely SF city. No wonder I chose to stay there for the last two years I remained in the US.

There’s a benefit to these experiences ; when I came back to Europe, my attitude of former '68 student towards our cops, had totally turned around : I found them all so decent, and courteous, and legally aware…

You say, there are now “Entrapment” laws. Good to hear. I’ll have to check this out, hopefully change my opinion on US local cops generally. Of course, I don’t mean I never met exceptions, I’m recalling only the negative encounters… But, as we say in the French press : “a train which arrives in due time is no news”.

Anyway, do all come to Mesquer this summer. Our only city policeman will never stop you on the grounds he suspects you being a “stranger”, and will rather direct you, or drive you, to your B&B…

Not to rain on Cyfiawnder’s rant on entrapment, but I thought I might clear a few things up. There are rules against entrapment, but as far as I know, no jurisdiction in the US has passed an “entrapment law”. And there are no requirements that cops must park in a place that is seen in order to catch speeders.

I agree that going into a bar and administering breathalyzer tests is idiotic, but it is not entrapment. Entrapment is when the police engage in an activity that entices a law-abiding citizen to do something that is illegal that they would not have done without the enticement.

So yes, cops can park outside a bar and pull people over when they leave in a car drunk. (Honestly, do you see a problem with this? I’d rather have the drunks off the road ASAP myself.)

And yes, you can get a ticket from an unmarked cop car. Unless you could argue that the presence of an unmarked car forced you to go faster (can’t really follow that one).

Your point about the cop tailgating could have some merit. You could argue that you were simply trying to avoid them rear-ending you, I guess. It’s a reasonable argument, but I doubt it would be effective.

And towns can pass laws against skateboarding and the like. They can also (as every jurisdiction that I know of has) have curfew laws that require those under a certain age (such as 17) to be off the streets by a certain hour unless accompanied by a guardian. How this relates to the town being a “KKK” town I’m not sure.

John Mac
(yes, I am a lawyer)

One more thing (lawyers can be so wordy, we get paid by the word, you know :wink:) I think that your point about going into a bar and doing breathalyzer tests being as bad as going into a private residence is not valid. A bar is a public place, where you expect others (including cops) to be able to enter. A private residence is a very different matter. The expectation of privacy is much higher, as has been held by the US Supreme Court for decades.

Thanks for thoughtful replies. For the record, the incidents I referred to were reported on the Brian Wilson show, which is produced in Washington D.C. then broadcast on KSFO here in SF. One of those cited included a woman who had just arrived in a cab and was on her second drink, so the blood alcohol level for drunkeness must be pretty low. She was told that it had been reported that she was going topless in that bar, even tho she had just arrived and there were witnesses who corroborated HER story.

There were several occasions and locations that this happened and the officers were writing citations etc. In California, we have the .08 blood alcohol level, which is very low. If everyone in a bar was tested, I think most of the bar would be cited really. So to me, the idea is this: if you have made provision to use public transit, taxis, or walked to your local bar, are you allowed to get goofy or not?

The absurdly low alcohol level is the result of sincere MADD (Mothers against Drunk Driving) and other activists work and is a standard for DRIVING safely, not passing out from alcohol poisoning.

But I believe that in the psychology of the powerful people who pass such laws, they consider themselves above the actual law, either in limo service or weaseling out of the conviction. But the proactive nature of the Fairfax Cty authorities would threaten this, presumably, unless the police knew “who” to cite and who not to.

According to the radio report, this seems more of a revenue source than a social sea change but it sure bugs me, just like licensing musicians.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. So no matter what explanation you tell me about the UK Licensing Fee and its good benefits, its just wrong!

That’s terrible!
I’ll add my name
Lizzie S.

When a premises is assessed for a license, it is given a limit on the number of people it can hold. It has to have enough fire exits and extinguishers, be suitably safely wired and have suitable facilities for that number of people.
If a Paul McCartney gig was advertised and took place in a non licensed premises, it would be a lot more ‘dangerous’ because of the sheer numbers of people turning up than 3 local musicians having a session, which is illegal. Hence the reference to Paul McCartney. Substitute any well known performer you like.
Jo.

Now I get it Jo. I was confused because here in the Bay Area of California, we have quite a few rock stars who live over in Marin County and they do drop into small clubs to play and join with local bands. But its NEVER advertised, tho locals have a clue. So its not for the bars to make money, but for the musicians to get real, so to speak, with audience interaction etc. as opposed to those stadium concerts etc…

The downside of our genre (Irtrad, folk etc) is that few make enough money to even have a middle-class life. The upside is the reasonably sized audiences and places where the music is made.

And it never ceases to amaze me how high the talent level is at our local Freight and Salvage Coffeehouse in Berkeley.

Many very famous corporate recording artists seem deficient in comparison and many argue that the system itself quells innovation etc.. A good example is Maura OConnell. She comes here quite a bit and has played the Freight. But she is such a fine singer. Sarah McLachlan covered one of Maura’s original songs, but added nothing to it, in my opinion.

Oops, spinning OT but BUMP!