Guidance for Newbies re Tempo and Benefits/Dangers of Listen

Whistle
1

I have a question for those of you who are Experienced.

I’ve listened to quite a few of the tunes recorded on MP3 by various amateur whistle devotees that are posted on a variety of whistle/Irish music-related websites.

Now, as a McNewbie, I can only approach this process with my own particular baggage, which in my case includes 5-6 years of intense classical training in orchestral French Horn and 2-3 years of agonizing violin lessions (Suzuki method..ugh..follow the sticky dots).

OK so here is my issue: many of the self-recorded tunes I’m hearing have one common “problem”, (and I want to confirm if this is really a problem or whether I am tainted by my highfalootin orchestra roots): many of these tune recordings “suffer” from/fail to maintain a reasonbly consistent tempo through the entire tune.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying we all have to play like metronomes :slight_smile: or Metrognomes :slight_smile:, but some of these tunes are so inconsistent in their tempo that you can barely recognize the tune. I cant tell whether this is because the player cant handle both the ornamentation and a consistent tempo, or whether these tempo variations are a matter of artistic style/taste. All of the professional whistlers I’ve heard on CDs all are pretty rock solid in keeping a solid and consistent beat through the entire tune.

I have heard that in some cases (particularly slow aires) its part of the style to lengthen and vary the notes for artistic effect. But I wasnt aware that the tradition commonly extends this to jigs and reels as well.

Most of the emphasisis I’ve seen posted on the the merits/dangers for McNewbies in listening to posted MP3 files (like Clips and Snips, for example) has focused onwhether the ornamentation in those recordings is correct, but in my mind the greater danger of this is that it may lead newbies astray regarding the importance of maintaining consistent tempo in your playing.

Sorry for the long post, but here is the question:

  1. Assume a newbie wants to learn Session Tunes.

  2. Assume this newbie wants to learn by ear by listening to recordings.

  3. Assume the newbie has reached the skill level where he/she can play the notes of a basic tune without ornamentation at a slow to medium-speed tempo, but one that is slow by typical session standards (for example the average speed of a tune found on McCullough’s 121 CDS)

  4. OK now, what is the better approach for this newbie who wants to become SessionWorthy (again, lets assumethat becoming SessionWorthy is the decision, but Imnot saying that becoming SessionWorthy is the beall and endall of whistling–thats another topic): Should the newbie purchase a metronome and practice playing the tunes at SessionSpeeds cleanly, clearly and with few if any mistakes with minimal ornamentation, or is it better to focus on packing in full load of ornamentation at the expense of being able to maintain a consistent tempo though all the repeats of both the A and B versions of the tune?

I know my question is loaded with bias. I cant get over this ingrained instinct that its better for a newbie to play with good, consistent tempo, and to cultivate proper phrasing in the Irish music style and to gradually start adding lots of rolls and other fancy ornamentation.

For those of you who are Experienced, what do you think? In a session, wouldnt you rather a new player be able to play the basic tune in good tempo all the way through the tune with tasteful phrasing, rather than with tons of “authentic” ornamentation but with poor tempo control?

All I know is that if a total newbie wanted to learn by ear, it seems to me they shouldnt click on 98% of the MP3 links that are available on the many well-meaning sites on the web, because they seem to indicate that one should focus on developing ornamentation skills at the expense of tempo.

If Im wrong, and ornamentation is more important than tempo in learning the “true” style of this music, I’d love to know.

And again, I agree with everyone who says that listening to the robotic MIDI playback of abc files is totally inaccurate, but isnt it true that if a player chose a tune in Norbecks, played it all the waythrough with tasteful phrasing, a few cuts and taps, and good, consistent tempo, that this is a better goal for the average newbie to achieve authenticity than obsessing on more complex ornamentation?

Again, sorry for having written the War and Peace of whistling, but I never see anyone talkign about tempo in discussions about learning tunes/learning by ear, and my instinct is that this is more important than ornamentation skills???

Thanks,

DAZED

2

Dazed,
I’m also totally a newbie with experience in other musical fields, esp. flamenco guitar playing for dancers. I also noticed that many of the posted tunes seem to be rythmically challenged but I assumed that it was due to the same phenomenon that I witnessed with fledgling flamenco guitarists. I.e., trying to play the fancy stuff even though they couldn’t do the fancy stuff while keeping the rhythm. Also, when playing solo there is a tendency to stretch the time a bit. Now, I DON’T MEAN TO CRITICIZE ANYONE. I want to play the fancy stuff too…eventually. But when playing with others there has to be some agreement on rhythm and tempo. This concept is sometimes difficult for students new to music to acquire.

Mike

3

Intonation, notes, even ornamentation come with time, but good rhythm doesn’t. It, by all accounts, is something you don’t just learn, but something that you must work on hard. It also appears to me that what distinguishes a good amateur from a pro is timing/phrasing & rhythm.

My rhythm sucks and it is the thing I work on fret over most (with infuriatingly slow progress). Buy a metronome (or use software), listen to losts of good music tapping your foot, work on it. There was a thread that I started some months back, about How Do I Develop Good Rhythm (or something to the effect), but there are no shortcuts, really, I fear. (If you find one, pm me.)

About L.E. McCullough’s Session Tunes: I like them, but I am not sure that his rhythm on the slow versions is always perfect.

Good luck.

4

On 2002-05-22 09:07, burnsbyrne wrote:
… I assumed that it was due to the same phenomenon that I witnessed with fledgling flamenco guitarists. I.e., trying to play the fancy stuff even though they couldn’t do the fancy stuff while keeping the rhythm.

I think that pretty much describes it for whistlers, too. Slowing down is sooo hard to do. :wink:

5

Some things to perhaps consider–

First, not everyone has a metronome in their head. For lots of musicians, keeping a rock-steady tempo is very easy and so learned first. However, for lots more (including some very good musicians) an absolutely rock steady tempo is never quite achieved when they are playing by themselves.

This doesn’t mean that they won’t be able to play in a group of musicians, however. It is quite different than playing alone.

My own experience in recording tunes to post on my site is that you must catch a quick and quiet moment when

a) your spouse is either asleep,in the bathroom, or at work

b) your neighbors aren’t home (I live in an apartment. You’d be surprised how many apartments away you can hear someone’s toilet flush!)

c) there is no train coming down the tracks a quarter mile away, whistling like a madman

d) there are no planes screaming in for a hot landing at the airpot one mile away

e) the phone isn’t ringing

f) your beeper isn’t going off because somebody at work forgot how to reboot a computer

When all these fall into place you may have a quiet five minutes in which to try to get a decent recording of a tune. The first take, the microphone will squeal. The second take, the phone will ring. The third take, you’ll flub that c-natural roll in the B section. The fourth take, Microsoft will throw up a Blue Screen of Death. The fifth take (by then, you are nervous and sweating and just want it done because you know if you start over later it’ll just be more of the same) you finally get a decent recording. If the rhythm falters a touch you may not even notice. Fact is, unless you are one of the “built in metronome” people, you may not be equipped to notice!

So I would say you should respect folks for the effort of putting their sound out there for the world to see and criticize. This is especially true for beginning players who may be extremely vulnerable to criticism.

Even a professional player who has made many CDs should not be too quick to criticize someone who is trying to record tunes at home without benefit of professional equipment and controlled surroundings.

That’s my $.02–your milage may vary.

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

6

On 2002-05-22 09:32, peeplj wrote:

Even a professional player who has made many CDs should not be too quick to criticize someone who is trying to record tunes at home without benefit of professional equipment and controlled surroundings.
http://www.flutesite.com

Seems to me there is a difference between honoring and respecting someone’s best efforts on the one hand and trying to understand the importance of good rhythm and striving to attain it on the other.

7

Are recordings of mostly not-very-good players a good source to learn from? No (1)

Are good rhythm and steady tempo more important than ornamentation? Yes.

Developing a good swing isn’t hard, provided that you listen enough to (good of course) traditional players. But steady tempo, particularly not speeding up, is very hard for most people, myself included.

What’s the best way to develop steady tempo? I wish I knew. I’m still working on it after all these years.

All I can say is work on it. Know the tune well. Listen to yourself playing it. Give every note, every phrase, its full value. I don’t think perfection is to be strived for - who wants to be a human click track - but you should aim to bring the problem under control as soon as possible.

(1) No disrespect intended to those who put their efforts up there for the world to criticize. My comments are made with the interest of the learner in mind. Although I think it’s worth noting that nobody is forcing anyone to post their efforts.

Edited to clean up.

[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-05-22 09:45 ]

8

Do not, do not, do not try to learn tunes, nor Irish music, from the recordings on Clips and Snips. As much as I like most of the people who post there (or at least I like their on-line personas), the great majority of them are very much beginning players. The rhythm is bad. The ornamentation is messy, wrong or non-existant. The intonation is weak and out of tune. You get the picture. I am not any sort of amazing player myself, but I do recognize that if one truly wants to learn to play well then one should seek out only the best playing. Keep working on that L.E. McCullough CD, slowly and steadily, until you can play every tune in the book, at the faster speed, with ornaments, from memory, without thinking about it. Then you will be ready to move on to just about anything. If the L.E. McCullough book just bores you out of your mind, try listening to CDs of solo flute and whistle players, and not new-agey stuff like Joannie Madden’s solo albums. Go for the pure trad and it will pay off in the end. The older the material you can find, the better. Also, go to sessions, if only to listen. Sessions are the heart of Irish music.
Keep plugging away, and remember, the only shortcut is hard work.
Best,
Chris

9

Traditional musicians do tend to lengthen and shorten note-values but not to an extend where the actual rhythm becomes compromised. It is done rather to emphasise the rhythm. Being solid is of the utmost importance. You do need the whole package though, the proper phrasing, rolls and thingamywhatsies but the ornamentation is there ofcourse to support the tune rather than disturb it.

As for Bloomfield’s remark I offer a small fragment taken from a transcript of a conversation with the late Sean Reid, where he talks about the Inagh born fiddleplayer Joe Ryan;


About 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and perhaps, yes, around that time and Joe used to call out 'that time and I used to give him lessons on the flute and the fiddle and he was full of music, desperately enthusiastic, but he couldn’t keep time. So that shows the character of the man, that he was able to discipline himself and overcome that fault, because it’s a terrible fault, you know, it’s very hard to overcome and yet he did it. He plays nice and steady now.

There’s hope yet so Manfred.

10

Wow, thanks for all the great comments.

Uh. I do want to clarify that I am IN NO WAY CRITICIZING all of those who do post their recordings on the web. I think its great, and I personally appreciate both the generosity and, quite frankly, the courage of those who are willing to do so. I learn a lot from listening to others, no matter what their stage of development.

However, my question inthis post was perhaps a slightly more refined, focused question than I had seen discussed before…namely, looking only from the perspsctive of a hypothetical beginner with little or no musical experience and little experience to base their judgment in assessing what they hear on posted MP3s, how can we as a C&F community perhaps discuss our collective consensus on how to guide a beginner in gaining the “good stuff” from these recordings without being led astray by some of the characteristics of these recordings that perhaps should be overlooked or disregarded (but not criticized) :slight_smile:

May I be so bold as to proposed that any beginner is well advised/to be strongly advised to work on their tune with a metronome, gradually increasing the speed, until they can play it at a reasonably fast pace (or even session pace) with all repeats, A and B and any applicable variations, without mistakes and with good phrasing and rythymm (and maybe a few simple cuts and taps, perhaps an ocassional slide), before even trying to take on rolls, casdahs, etc?

I tried this once…I picked a tune and decided I was going to play it until I could play it all the way through, nonornamented, with good rhythm, without mistakes, at a slow to medium pace, with nice phrasing. Let me tell you, it sounds easy, but it took a VERY long time to succeed even once. Since that experience, I’ve found my initial obsession with ornamentation at the expense of rhythmic accuracy has almost completely evaporated. But I was wondering if I’m off base somehow, or wrong, or just wierd.

Maybe its just all that Special Food I’ve been eating lately…

DAZED

11

Thanks, Peter for the encouragement! :slight_smile:

On 2002-05-22 10:17, DazedinLA wrote:

I tried this once…I picked a tune and decided I was going to play it until I could play it all the way through, nonornamented, with good rhythm, without mistakes, at a slow to medium pace, with nice phrasing. Let me tell you, it sounds easy, but it took a VERY long time to succeed even once. Since that experience, I’ve found my initial obsession with ornamentation at the expense of rhythmic accuracy has almost completely evaporated. But I was wondering if I’m off base somehow, or wrong, or just wierd.

I don’t think you’re off base: That’s the work to be done. It takes me days and weeks to learn a tune. Despite my general self-depreciating tendencies, I don’t think that is unusual or unreasonably slow. They say it gets easier after the first hundred tunes or so (groan).

12

Amazing that this topic appeared this morning. I was at my whistle teacher’s for a lesson last night and we worked on this very thing…she is getting me ready to go to my first session (tonight, actually). She told me to forget about putting much ornamentation into my session tunes, especially the rolls, and to concentrate on good timing and rhythm. She said it is too difficult for a relative beginner to play quickly with all that ‘stuff’ in the tunes and keep the rhythm going. My whistle teacher is way cool and very smart!

liz

13

For every newbie who’s worried that he or she can’t keep a beat, remember you were born with a muscle that keeps time! Close your eyes, put your whistle to your lips, and follow your trusty heart. And go ahead and stamp that foot while you’re at it. :slight_smile:

14

Offcourse the whole issue hinges on the perception of what you guys consider ‘proper session speed’.
I propose that overthere you have much higher speeds than those considered appropriate in Clare.

15

Peter,
You are quite right about session speeds being higher in the US than in Clare. I found that in Clare, and even in Sligo, session speeds were substantially slower and the level of “swing” was much higher. In Boston tunes often move at breakneck paces. It takes someone like Seamus Connoly or Tommy Peoples to slow it down a notch.
Best,
Chris

16

Quote:



On 2002-05-22 10:17, DazedinLA wrote:

I tried this once…I picked a tune and decided I was going to play it until I could play it all the way through, nonornamented, with good rhythm, without mistakes, at a slow to medium pace, with nice phrasing. Let me tell you, it sounds easy, but it took a VERY long time to succeed even once. Since that experience, I’ve found my initial obsession with ornamentation at the expense of rhythmic accuracy has almost completely evaporated. But I was wondering if I’m off base somehow, or wrong, or just wierd.


\

I think it is important for beginners who are not only beginners to whistles but also beginners to music to do just what is described in Dazed’s quote above. It’s important to remember that you are not just learning a tune but you are learning rhythm, tempo and lots of other skills that you will use to learn the next tune. It’s a matter of deciding what is the goal, to learn this tune or to learn the art of performing music. I think that if beginners keep this in mind they will find that they actually progress more quickly and avoid learning bad habits.
Mike

17

Have you ever ball room danced with someone who would speed up and slow down with the melody line instead of flow steadily with the downbeat?
I’m pretty sure that in the evolution of music, rhythm came before melody.
I’ve said this before and I will say this again–how does one improve sense of rhythm? Dance!
How can we expect to play jigs and reels right if we’ve never danced a jig or reel??
Lisa

18

I would be very hesitant to use a metronome for a whole tune. This is a conclusion that has taken me over 34 years of study (including metronome use) to reach.

I agree that you need to have steady rhythm if you find its a problem. But I am very wary of the insidious effects of a metronome:

  1. Eliminates DESIRABLE micro-variances in rhythm which are ultimately part of great music making.
  2. Can give you an external crutch to rely on rather than train you internally if you are not super-careful.
  3. At some point, you might “tune out” the beep or click of a metronome. You never want to tune out what you are doing when you play music.
  4. could direct you away from valuable upbeat phrasing by directing you always to downbeats. I know that this is partially done by internal "clock’ anyway but…

I would be very selective in metronome use for these reasons. I know there is a place for them, but I have grown against them for above reasons. I say use it for passage work and ornaments only.

This is a can of worms.

Adding in later: I think that there can be other areas to work on that impede your ability to keep time. Tension, lack of ability to focus are the two that first come to mind.

I think we have natural rhythm but I have seen many students who couldn’t settle down into a place where they could naturally just feel things. Sounds real California, I know, but the level of stress, bad diet and over-stimulation in this modern world messes with many elemental human functions.



[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-05-22 15:03 ]

19

Weekenders:

Good point, but hey, in my case there’s an ultra slow beginners session in my area and these peoples’ rhythm, uh, lets say it needs a lot of work, and Im thinking at least initially they do need a metronome to get them on track.

As a long term crutch I agree its not good, but dont ya kinda have to spend some time in da batting cage before ya even get into da game? Being the most advanced newbie in this group, I’d like to know Im steering these folks in the right direction by suggesting that we start using a metronome and that they give full, consistent tone and phrasing to all of their notes with a consistent rhythym.

20

This is a very interesting discussion with lots of good advise. Thank you everyone.

I have recently discovered that my timing and rhythm stinks (And all these years I thought I was only tone deaf!) My stategy for learning tunes so far has been to combine sheet music (for pitch) and internet recordings (rhythm). I try not to worry too much about ornamentation unless it comes very naturally, just trying to get the basic tunes down. I can’t really “count” or tap a foot and play at the same time (walking and chewing gum has always been a problem as well :slight_smile: )

I have been playing for about a year and can do a respectable job of a slow air. Jigs n’ reel still elude me however, despite muddling through Brother Steve’s tutorials.

Are there any lessons/exercises I could try? Advise appreciated.

Thanks,

S.